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Labour and tax

304 replies

Iwishicouldflyhigh · 19/06/2024 11:12

Is anyone else concerned about all the talk about Labour getting in and then increasing lots of taxes - capital gains, CT, tax on pensions etc. I'm accepting that they are going to get in, but i am genuinely concerned that they are going to clobber the middle classes.

I don't think that KS is a bad person (actually - with a few exceptions - i think that most politicians at least START in politics with the correct intentions), but i 'm worried that his genuine ideals are far more left then he is making out. The rich will be all right (they always are), but the middle classes (of which i am one) - i'm genuinely worried. He supported JC for God's sake!!

I think that people are genuinely so pissed off (rightfully) with the Tories, that they are voting in Labour with the idea that they can't be any worse. But i'm concerned that they might be (for different reasons).

Can any party really fix the issues in this country?

Please talk me down, someone!

OP posts:
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Thingscanonlygetsunk · 20/06/2024 06:51

fliptopbin · 20/06/2024 06:41

Labour have specifically said that there will be no CTG on family homes.

That shows beyond any reasonable doubt that they will put CTG on family second homes and so we should have at least one thread a day about it and how unfair it is.

fliptopbin · 20/06/2024 06:41

Rubblefrompawpatrol · 19/06/2024 20:35

I think CGT on housing is a poor plan. Much better to scrap stamp Duty and council tax and charge a % of a house’s value as an annual local tax instead. This incentivises people to move house by taking away the barrier (stamp duty) and encouraging people to live in a house that isn’t too big by making it expensive to do so.

It would get more money out of the rich and reduce demand (and prices) for larger family homes.

Labour have specifically said that there will be no CTG on family homes.

EasternStandard · 20/06/2024 06:26

Aladdinzane · 19/06/2024 21:39

As predicted, any suggestion of paying more tax is met by utter derision and threats from the hysterical daily mail reading classes.

The country is a shell of what it once was, because of 14 years of ideological austerity. We have lower corporation tax, lower CGT, lower IHT, no wealth taxes and lower top rates of progressive tax than many other countries.

We have lower pensions, levels of basic benefits, spend less on health, education and infrastructure. We have the highest wealth inequality of any major European nation and the lowest level of social mobility. We did have a larger level of children living in poverty, till the Tories changed the definition of it. We have the highest level of things like foodbank use in Western Europe at least and other countries in central and Eastern Europe are predicted to go beyond our living standards in the next decade.

We have a generation which is shorter than previous generations, average height amongst 5 year olds falling every year from 2013, the most expensive university education in Europe, we have life expectancy lowering. The list is fucking endless.

Something has to change, and we should be ashamed as a nation that those who have benefitted the most from this society view their achievements as separate and we should be mortified that they make threats about what they we do if we do ask them to contribute more.

You expected adoration and for people to genuflect to your munificence for being "net contributors" , yet this is a very basic calculation, and when run over a lifetime, only about 3% of people die in net benefit. Change a few things in the calculation ( like adding in indirect societal benefits) and its about 0.5%, and the number of net contributors falls dramatically. Most, including you, will die in net tax deficit. You are not the masters of the universe, and will not be treated as such.

I see the usual threats are out there about leaving.

You won't. You are less globally mobile than you think. You can make up whatever story you want to try to justify it on here, but you know deep down you aren't really moving.

Reduce your hours. Great, someone else is going to benefit from them. If you think no one else can do your job, you are almost 99% wrong. There may be one or two of you, but far too many of you who threaten spend far too long on MN every day ( and night) to be quite as important and indispensable as you claim.

If your kids are an in private school and you can't afford the fee increase? You most likely made a bad financial decision there anyway and you were over stretched. Sorry. Most parents will just swallow the increase by making minor changes to spending.

Your parents are going to have to pay for their own social care with the wealth they amassed, this is only right and fair, YOU did not earn the inheritance that you thought you were getting, and they benefitted from untaxed property gains for generations.

IHT will go up, and it is fair, you didn't earn it, and your parents got tax breaks on it. They aren't being taxed, they are dead.

Council taxes need to change, people in newer build houses ( and there are a lot since 1992) are paying higher rates than people in much more valuable houses. Most people will again just be paying a bit more.

The changes will effect EVERYONE, but the future has got to get better. We can't run the country for the benefit of the rich, privileged and highly paid any longer.

Out of all this, which I’m not sure will be the case, people do opt in or out / move etc

We have lower corporation tax

This isn’t true I don’t think, compared with countries who decide to really compete for companies based on
CT

Chickenuggetsticks · 20/06/2024 06:22

Houseofdragonsisback · 19/06/2024 23:27

Well we could have Scandi rates at the top end?

Scandi rates only work with scandi public services though. And to get such services everyone needs to pay more taxes like they do in scandi countries. You need a broad tax base to raise significant revenue.

Yeah this keeps being missed, lower earners in scandi countries pay a lot more tax than they do in the UK. VAT is also higher. (Think it’s 25%).

I’m not sure that’s what people actually want, plus some don’t have inheritance tax.

Thingscanonlygetsunk · 20/06/2024 06:14

JudgeJ · 19/06/2024 22:42

Is that you Mrs Sunak????

Hiya, close, but incorrect. Have another go.

Thingscanonlygetsunk · 20/06/2024 06:11

MossyBottomFarm · 19/06/2024 21:45

VAT has been raised 4 times since its 8% starting point in 1973. Each and every rise has been delivered under a Conservative govt.

What other tax rises by recent Conservative govts?

Reduction in entrepreneurs’ relief for CGT announced at Budget 2020
Corporation tax increase Budget 2020
Income tax personal allowance freeze Budget 2021
Inheritance tax threshold freeze Budget 2021
CGT annual exempt allowance freeze Budget 2021
VAT registration threshold for business freeze Budget 2021
Dividend tax autumn Budget 2021
Freeze in starting rate band for savings tax Autumn Budget 2021
Freeze in adult ISA subscription limit autumn Budget 2021
Income tax basis period reform Autumn Budget 2021
Council tax measures Autumn Budget 2021
Freeze in student loan repayment threshold announced January 2022
Increase in Bank Surcharge in September 2022 mini-Budget
Increase in income tax rate in October 2022 mini-Budget U-turn
Council tax measures Autumn Statement 2022
Income tax/National Insurance thresholds frozen Autumn Statement 2022
Inheritance tax threshold freeze Autumn Statement 2022
Income tax Dividend Allowance reduced Autumn Statement 2022
Income tax additional rate threshold reduced Autumn Statement 2022
Capital Gains Tax reduced annual exempt amount Autumn Statement 2022
National Insurance employer threshold frozen Autumn Statement 2022
VAT registration threshold frozen Autumn Statement 2022
Individual Savings Accounts: maintain annual subscription limit at £20,000 for 2023-24 Budget 2023
Starting rate limit for savings income: maintain at £5,000 for 2023-24 Budget 2023

But, yes, it is Labour who are trying to pick your pocket

Please do not use facts in this discussion.

Facts had nothing to do with But Jeremy Corbyn, Keir's beer, Angela's house or knowing what a woman is, so why should they with its latest incarnation?

Whenwillitgetwarm · 20/06/2024 00:37

My fear is that a small number of higher earners on PAYE will be squeezed to death. The rich not on PAYE won’t be touched.

Then all of the money raised will be used to raise public sector pay which hasn’t been increased for a while. Meanwhile there will be no structural or process changes the public will benefit from delivered.

Againname · 19/06/2024 23:33

Did he really mention the Toolmaker thing again?

I genuinely wonder actually if it's increased interest in pursuing a career in toolmaking? Perhaps he could encourage vocational training and apprenticeships for aspiring toolmakers? I'm not being sarcastic. I really do wonder if it's inspired interest.

Houseofdragonsisback · 19/06/2024 23:27

Well we could have Scandi rates at the top end?

Scandi rates only work with scandi public services though. And to get such services everyone needs to pay more taxes like they do in scandi countries. You need a broad tax base to raise significant revenue.

tara66 · 19/06/2024 23:20

He seemed to say - in fact he did say - ''any one who can write a cheque'' will be taxed - but how, what tax and why? Quite alarming even in the words he used - no explanations - plus the repeated story -
' ''My father was a tool maker and my mother a nurse.... We had to have the phone disconnected because we could not pay the bill....'' .
This is supposed to explain his tax policy? No form of clarification re. what his taxes will be at all.

silverneedle · 19/06/2024 23:07

Labour’s manifesto says they “will not increase taxes on working people, which is why we will not increase National Insurance, the basic, higher, or additional rates of Income Tax, or VAT.”

The manifesto goes on to say “Labour will address unfairness in the tax system. We will abolish non-dom status once and for all, replacing it with a modern scheme for people genuinely in the country for a short period. We will end the use of offshore trusts to avoid inheritance tax so that everyone who makes their home here in the UK pays their taxes here. Private equity is the only industry where performance-related pay is treated as capital gains. Labour will close this loophole.

We will modernise HMRC and change the law to tackle tax avoidance. We will increase registration and reporting requirements, strengthen HMRC’s powers, invest in new technology and build capacity within HMRC. This, combined with a renewed focus on tax avoidance by large businesses and the wealthy, will begin to close the tax gap and ensure everyone pays their fair share.”

I support all of this. Labour’s manifesto does not say they will increase capital gains tax, but I would support that should they as I believe it should be at the same rate as as income tax and not lower as it currently is.

Aladdinzane · 19/06/2024 23:05

Houseofdragonsisback · 19/06/2024 22:59

@Aladdinzane What makes you think changes to council tax. CGT, IHT won’t impact me?

How much more do you think people on higher PAYE tax should pay?

Well we could have Scandi rates at the top end?

Houseofdragonsisback · 19/06/2024 23:01

Oh & considering I’ve been paying tax for over 20 years what makes you think I’m unwilling to pay? 😆

Houseofdragonsisback · 19/06/2024 22:59

@Aladdinzane What makes you think changes to council tax. CGT, IHT won’t impact me?

How much more do you think people on higher PAYE tax should pay?

newnamethanks · 19/06/2024 22:56

Yes OP, let's have everything fixed free why not. Two choices. Keep going as things are with 14 years of Tories diverting funds away from essential services as an example of how they operate OR vote them out, pay more tax, get things fixed. Can't have both, your choice.

Buryyiirwhat · 19/06/2024 22:55

I cannot WAIT to have the Tories gone. I’ll pay more tax as long as it doesn’t go towards tax breaks for private schools, to bail out bloody bankers or in some unworkable mad scheme to send anyone to Rwanda.

Aladdinzane · 19/06/2024 22:53

Houseofdragonsisback · 19/06/2024 22:52

As a higher rate tax payer I’m already clobbered as I’m on PAYE. Wealth should be taxed more. CT should be overhauled.

Can any party really fix the issues in this country?

No because most of the population don’t want to acknowledge the issues.

Or, like you, isn't willing to pay to fix them.

Houseofdragonsisback · 19/06/2024 22:52

As a higher rate tax payer I’m already clobbered as I’m on PAYE. Wealth should be taxed more. CT should be overhauled.

Can any party really fix the issues in this country?

No because most of the population don’t want to acknowledge the issues.

Rubblefrompawpatrol · 19/06/2024 22:51

I think Labour’s planning to hope freezing the income tax bands and hoping the economy continues its bounce back will fill its coffers. Which is a shame as in order to be truly radical in tax you need a big majority which is fairly rare. He has that, we need better public services, so try radical taxes Keir!

Oh and ‘closing tax avoidance loopholes’ is manifesto speak for ‘we haven’t got a bloody clue how we find this money’. There are no tax avoidance loopholes to be filled that will bring in big money.

Rubblefrompawpatrol · 19/06/2024 22:44

Judellie · 19/06/2024 22:39

I wondered if raising money via a city tax for holidaymakers would work here in the UK, as you have to pay it in a lot of European cities when you holiday there. It's obviously invested in that city tho; in Basel we got free transport round the city and reduced entry to some museums; I don't remember getting anything in Rome.
However, discussing this with my dh, he seemed to think that there's no way any UK Govt would let anything stay local and be invested in the relevant city for using their services; if, for example, one city made £3 million from this, he thought any Govt would just say ok, we're reducing your central government funds by £3 million then.
I have a vague memory that Edinburgh were floating this idea but not sure if anything ever came of it.

Being introduced in Scotland.

Aladdinzane · 19/06/2024 22:43

"California, 5th July, plane is booked."

Someone might want to look at the taxes in California :)

JudgeJ · 19/06/2024 22:42

Thingscanonlygetsunk · 19/06/2024 19:56

California, 5th July, plane is booked.

Is that you Mrs Sunak????

Judellie · 19/06/2024 22:39

I wondered if raising money via a city tax for holidaymakers would work here in the UK, as you have to pay it in a lot of European cities when you holiday there. It's obviously invested in that city tho; in Basel we got free transport round the city and reduced entry to some museums; I don't remember getting anything in Rome.
However, discussing this with my dh, he seemed to think that there's no way any UK Govt would let anything stay local and be invested in the relevant city for using their services; if, for example, one city made £3 million from this, he thought any Govt would just say ok, we're reducing your central government funds by £3 million then.
I have a vague memory that Edinburgh were floating this idea but not sure if anything ever came of it.

Mia85 · 19/06/2024 22:20

Anonym00se · 19/06/2024 21:26

The article itself isn’t really relevant, but I was asked to show where I’d got the 3% figure from.

I’m not being kept awake at night worrying about having to pay a bit more tax on the profit when I flog my next Picasso. My original point is that many middle class people lose their minds at potential tax rises that will not affect them. Even the majority of middle class people don’t have a house going spare, and I doubt they’re making tens of thousands a year in share dividends. Why is everyone so terrified of tax rises that will only affect the rich, when they’re not rich themselves?

I think the concen is not (just) that the rate of CGT will rise but that the thresholds and scope of the tax will change so bringing more middle class people within it's reach. Added to that a worry that use of ISAs and pensions will be limited so that it's hard to put much by in tax shelters.

Of course that is speculation but there are going to be significant expectations for what Labour can achieve for public services (not least from their own ranks), they've ruled out the most obvious taxes and their reliance on growth and clamping down on tax avoidance are also very speculative and won't be immediate. That leaves very few options and the worry that higher PAYE earners who are putting something aside for their future will be the obvious target. Starmer's narrow definition of 'working people' does reinforce that worry.

ilovesooty · 19/06/2024 22:10

Olderkids · 19/06/2024 21:32

Such an eloquent and reasoned reply 🙄

Well I could go into why, but I don't think I have the time or the crayons.