To think droves of teachers will make the decision by husband made today- to leave

So what if the parents decide that their little precious doesn’t deserve the detention?

They shout, swear, abuse the teacher. Go straight to the head, complain to ofsted on some nefarious safeguarding nonsense. And yes complain about poor little babies mental health.

What about the children who just don’t care? They’re so traumatised by life, detention is nothing to them? In fact it’s better than being at home?

I don’t think you understand kids or families nowadays at all!

I fundamentally disagree with this. I don’t agree that, even in the few areas with grammars, that the “top” pupils are “creamed off” - and what a way to think about kids. There’s many different ways of being intelligent and talented.

Grammars take the most academically able kids at 11. But one of the flaws of the old grammar system was that plenty of clever kids didn’t get into the grammars for different reasons - didn’t apply themselves, didn’t have parents who valued education, were immature at 11, or just messed up the exam.

That’s why, even in a grammar area, non-grammars have to be truly comprehensive - to cater for the most able as well as the least.

In all but 2 of the inner London boroughs, 10-50% of kids are in independent school. But no-one thinks of this as “creaming off” the “top pupils” and no-one would consider that the comprehensives are less comprehensive as a result. There are loads of super bright kids in London comprehensives. Mossbourne Academy gives the private schools a run for their money.

A pupil will quite simply not turn up for a detention. They will just go home. Parents won’t support the school so the bad behaviour continues. It is very difficult to enforce discipline when so many parents are unsupportive.

And if the parents then go in screaming and swearing that they’re taking their kid home and why should they be punished for ‘mental health’..?

I get annoyed when teachers moan about a lack of disclipine. If a pupil swears at a teacher the response should be simple "You are in detention this evening, You will stay after school for two hours". That is what used to happen at my school, it did mean the teachers had a rota to stay late to watch those in detention but it worked well.

The same for any other act that is wrong, punish it.

@starrynight009 I asked to have my post of last night taken down, and would like to apologise publicly. I wrote in haste, and intemperately, and was horrified when I read it back this morning. I'm sorry that it has taken me 24 hours to say so.

Unfortunately schools are often dominated by badly-behaved kids even in areas with no grammar schools and where almost everyone goes to the local comp. Where I live, virtually all kids go to a handful of local comprehensives. The odd one or two go to the grammar schools a bit further away, over the county border, but certainly not enough to 'cream off' the top layer. There are no private schools in the immediate area. Behaviour in the comps is bad and getting worse.

@Seymour5 thank you for answering my question.

Depends on their age? For instance where my DGC live the outstanding selective 6th form college has a mixture of high achievers from different (pretty decent) comps along with ex private school pupils.

I've already related my experience, but one thing I'd forgotten to mention - this should all come as no surprise. Back in the 80's, no less, I joined up with an organisation called "The Escape Committee" which basically advised teachers who had had enough. The signs were clear; they had a consumer base to subscribe to their magazine, after all!
I cannot begin the enumerate the harebrained initiatives I have seen come and go since then. They come round in cycles. Yes I was one of the old sweats muttering at the staff meeting where the latest dazzling new scheme was proposed, ""Yes we tried that in 1974, and it didn't work then....." By my reckoning, I just kept doing what seemed to work well, and, cyclically, I was trendy four times over the years. This is not to say that my mind was closed to new ideas, but I tried to be realistic about them,
However, I didn't stay in the state system; foolishly, I allowed myself to become better qualified and experienced, hence more expensive. In the independent sector, which I had never considered, I was actually paid a salary supplement, a business decision on the part of management who saw well-qualified staff as a business asset.
Politicians come and go; they move on to be minster of something else quite quickly, so it is all novel to them, and they want to implement the quick, easy fix that shows results before they've gone. Anything costly, and a bit pragmatic and dull, doesn't really appeal, neither is there willingness to see things through and evaluate them realistically.

@SodOffbacktoaibu

The higher achieving kids get siphoned off round here so it really impacts on those kids in state schools because it's so imbalanced.

Where do they get siphoned off to?

We do have those, but my experience is that we're also having problems from mollycoddled middle class children whose helicopter parents simply will not believe that their children might not be perfect. They have an answer to everything.

We had one boy who kept chasing after younger girls and "imprisoning" them during lunch. (I reported him after two of the girls told me about it.)

He was also sending them lewd pics.

The parent's response was that the was only "playing" (in S4/Y10?) and that his account had been "hacked".

When I had to remove him from a younger teacher's class because of his lewd comments towards her, it was the school's fault for influencing him via the set text we were using and it was my fault that he didn't get a particular exam pass. He hadn't been entered at that level because his grades weren't good enough. (If the parents had paid attention to the documentation and reports they'd been sent plus the meetings we'd had, they'd have known that he'd never been entered for that level. )

The constant problems caused by that one pupil and his parents meant that already time-deprived staff were put under even more pressure and other pupils lost out because of his constant disruption.

We have grammars here and it's awful. All the money goes there (and to the church schools) and the poorer DC have to go the terrible comprehensives.

My DB lives in a non- grammar area. For his family the transition to high school was much easier than here. The parents choose between 2 good comprehensives and their DC goes up with lots of others from their school. All very relaxed.

Here, it's fraught. Have they passed the 11+? Is there score high enough to get into the school they want? What will we do if the don't pass? Which comprehensive is the least worse option? Can I get them into a church school? Now I need to appeal as my ASD DC got the dreadful Comp up the road. Which school shall I switch to as my DC hates their comprehensive/hasn't settled/needs not being met. Will I just have to home educate?

I'm not saying that's all exclusive to grammar school areas but that's my comparison with my DB.

Neither are they here but in areas where there are grammars then those tend to cream off the top pupils, independent schools get the next batch and then, as you rightly say, the rest go to comps.
The fundamental issue is that 1 size fits all simply doesn't work. We actually need more choice not less so that parents can choose the delivery model that best suits their child.

Ah yes @twistyizzy perhaps in areas that have them. We have a grammar school but it is in fact a fee paying private school entirely.

The only other one I know of is about 30 miles away and for girls only.

They're not a thing here.

To be fair grammars do this as much as/ more than private schools.

We had quite a few families from Eastern Europe move into our area and the children come to our school. Usually mum worked daytime in a fish factory then dad went out to work in the evenings. The homework was always done and when they came up on parents' evenings, they were interested in their child's behaviour and how hard they were working. Compare that to the local entitled lot with pots of money - dad on the oil rigs etc - all they were interested in was if their child was in a class with their friends and causing a massive fuss if they weren't. They would also email or demand to see teachers for the silliest of reasons or to complain that somebody had told their child off.

@SodOffbacktoaibu fwiw your post was balanced and fair, I’m referring to a couple of comments a few hours ago.

I want safe and calm classrooms for ALL children regardless of class, and that starts with society in general respecting education, teachers and teaching kids that adhering to rules is just the way society manages to work successfully.

I have a family member who works in secondary as well and describes the middle class gangster wannabes behaving appallingly. As I say it’s a societal problem not a failing of one particular class.

And sorry @Elasticatedtrousers . I've read my post and then just read yours. Of course, there are nice kids from disadvantaged backgrounds too. I just see the unruly ones seem to dominate at my child's school.

Even in top sets, my son is putting up with behaviour issues. That didn't happen at my school back in the day. Hence my comment. It's the demographic. The higher achieving kids get siphoned off round here so it really impacts on those kids in state schools because it's so imbalanced.

I think private schools just perpetuate the haves and have nots. There's nothing wrong with the teachers at my son's school. It's the fact that the clever, nice kids are dominated by kids with poor behaviour, exacerbated by the COVID years IMO.

If there were more good kids and good behaviour, my son would have more kids around him that are like him. He wouldn't be so isolated.

The 'bad kids ' have strength in numbers and it's not balanced.

We've basically ghettoised schools.

But most of Mumsnet are high earning middle classes who love that Tory ideal that if you can't afford private school, you've not tried or sacrificed enough. It's a lie to keep the privilege. Truth is an awful lot of private school people don't get a toss about other people's kids and society. I'm alright jack. That's it.

The bright, kind, sensitive kids especially those with autism, are being eaten alive in state schools. If more kids like them were around, they'd have ' their people ' but so many are siphoned off, they're in the minority and bullied.

Casual classism on this page alone of this thread is shocking.

I’m going to repeat it because seriously it needs to be said. I work in a very deprived area and many of the parents work hard to raise their children to be responsible polite members of society despite being on benefits. I have friends in middle class schools who say the selfishness, entitlement and rudeness from the parents is utterly shocking and just feeds the dreadful behaviour of the children.

You only have to see the bloody ridiculous threads on here to know this is true. child bleats that they have been treated ‘unfairly’ and suddenly it’s a matter for governors, local LADO, ofsted etc etc. child just becomes more rude, selfish and entitled.

It is across society and not just ‘feral kids from disadvantaged backgrounds’!

I'd suggest that schools are not the primary problem, that's just where some parts of the problem gets concentrated.

Society is broken. Where do you start to fix it?

I chose Quantity Surveying. It is a great job which needs good interpersonal skills and attention to detail. My job is to monitor the costs and maintain positive relationships with subcontractors and clients. Contract administration needs confidence and resilience.
I am currently a trainee and on completion of my course this year will be promoted.
Pay is very good, private healthcare and a company car when I pass my test. Supportive company who encourage me to progress.

I worked in education on and off for over 20yrs. I've worked in primary, secondary and post 16. Mainstream and SEN, also PRUs.
Please tell your friend that there is a massive skills shortage in construction. ( Brexit effect and looming retirement of most of the work force)
Site and project managers, site administrators, document controllers are a real problem. As well as all trades are short of staff. From bricklaying to drylining, electricians, heritage stone masons- there's such a variety of work available.
Then add the lack of health, safety and wellbeing officers you have so many options.

My thinking was, if I'm going to be screamed at, attacked at work, I may as well get paid decently for it lol
However I don't get treated they way I was in education. Schools are very odd places to work where bullying is rife but everyone puts up with it.
There have always been families with challenging circumstances but education is a political punch bag. How can you expect people to be stable at work when the goalposts are constantly moving?
If anyone wants to ask me anything at all about the work I do just sent me a message.

I don't quite understand your comment. My responsibility to do what? Her school have been wonderfully supportive and I haven't had an issue at all. The law supports the right of disabled children to go to school. The only issue I've had is from a small number of Internet people making judgements and assumptions about children going to school in nappies. I don't announce the fact my daughter has a bowel condition to anyone. Most parents of children with bowel issues don't as it's not our bodies so not for us to tell the world. Thankfully more young people with stomas and bowel conditions are "coming out" about it which is helping the world know they exist. I believe it's better not to make any assumptions as to why children are still in nappies and just not mention children being in nappies all, in my opinion, because it just fuels stigma and prejudice against those who have a genuine reason to be in them. No mountains have had to be moved, just a little education needed online.

I can't imagine what parents of SEN children have to go through considering my daughter's medical issues are minor really. But I believe that it is our responsibility as a society as a whole to make to fair for all by giving access to all. Individual parents are powerlesss and I believe it's just one frustrating fight against another. It shouldn't matter if a child is in a wheelchair or is neurodivergent, every child has a right to a school education. As this thread seems to be proving from comments by teachers, the issues they face are far more to do with awful parents, lack of management support, constant government changes and not enough budgets for the support they need. That's why we need to be carefully who we vote for in the next election.

What field did you change to? I'm horrified by the stories on this thread and have one friend teaching in special education who gets attacked every day. I'd love to know some good options for her.