To think that the difference between Leave entitlements for teachers in the UK and Ireland is crazy

@backinthebox

Your job sounds much like teaching then. Lots of hours unpaid outside your paid hours. You'd think you'd have more empathy.

Does pointing out your extra hours to me mean you believe you're the only person doing extra hours?

No. Then when do you think it's how teachers feel?

Your assumptions are all about how teachers supposedly feel they are the only ones with extra aspects of their job.

Teachers don't believe this. They realise that many other professions work extra hours. In many cases they've worked in different professions.

@Sherrystrull “Are you paid for all of those 17 hours in your shifts?” I was paid for 14.5hrs of them. We are paid for the length of the flight, not the number of hours and days at work. The other hours are just hours which anre not counted but associated with the job, a bit like marking homework is. I also spent 3 days away from home on this trip for which I was not paid any hourly rate. I also spend time outside of normal working hours reading up on the state of the world, the aircraft, the weather, the destination. I also do certain aspects of safety and emergency and some other types of training in my own time, as well as applying for passports and visas, taking my annual medical, uniform fittings, etc. If the flight is delayed by a day, I don’t get a day off in lieu, it’s just tough. It is part of the job. I accept this. DH, in an entirely different field of work, works however many hours it takes to get the job done, for a fixed salary. This has been as many as 20 hours a day when things have been serious (he worked on a major government Covid-related project during lockdown.)

Could you point out which bits of my post earlier form ‘assumptions?’ Should be easy, as there are ‘so many!’

That sounds amazing.

Currently, most state teachers are paid for 195 school days, plus 28 days statutory holiday. All other school holidays are unpaid. We are essentially paid for 10 months of the year, work 50-60 hour weeks and can never go on holiday in term time. DDs are now 17 and 20 but I regularly missed their sports days, parents evenings and school plays.

Yes, I knew this when I went into teaching. I fully accept that. The perk is that I got to see them more in school holidays.

Under your suggestion...

I'd be able to take the 28 days paid leave whenever I wanted, take term time holidays AND I'd be paid for the full 52 weeks of the year? Brilliant. Bring it on.

I assume I'd also have a standard 40 hour ish working week, and weekends and evenings off, yes? Wonderful.

Trouble is, the government would never be willing to stump up the extra cash.

So many assumptions.

It's not nice to laugh at your friends.

Are you paid for all of those 17 hours in your shifts?

I don't think it is that common really. Weddings come with plenty of notice, so most people would be able to sort leave or swap shifts etc.

Funerals obviously don't have much notice (none in Ireland) but again it's not often I hear of people missing them. There's another cultural aspect at play there though in that I'm Irish and our customs around death are very different. It would be unthinkable that anyone would miss a family funeral for work here, it just wouldn't happen in any. Managers and colleagues cover at short notice.

Anyway I don't think it particularly matters what other industries do. Other countries show it's possible for teachers to work fewer hours and have more flexibility with their leave than in the UK - without any detrimental effect on the children. So why wouldn't that be a better state of affairs? We all want our children's teachers to be happy at work, surely.

I work in a super challenging school and the main reason I stay is that my headteacher is flexible with leave for my child’s SEND appointments, medical appointments and gives me an hour of leave to see children’s performances when it works out as well as leave for funerals, weddings etc when I need it. I once worked in a school where I had to virtually beg to leave 15 minutes early to attend an occupational health appointment, so I don’t take the goodwill for granted!

@DdraigGoch ”Presumably under your proposal any out of hours work such as marking or parents' evenings will be eligible for TOIL?” This is another thing - I find teachers labour under the impression that they are the only profession to routinely do work outside of their working hours without time off in lieu. I can assure you this is not the case.

And the poster who thinks that teachers are in the minority in not being able to WFH, get an hour for lunch, go to the loo when they want, etc - again, this does not apply only to teachers, but I don’t see other professions making quite such the song and dance about it!

I get it - teaching is a hard job. Bureaucracy, the clientele, the working environment could all be much better. But it is not a uniquely harder than all other jobs job. Teachers do seem to moan more than other professions though, and that really does sap at the sympathy levels they might otherwise receive. Myself, I’m not really feeling much sympathy at all right now for anyone muttering about having to work outside of M-F, 9-5, since my last work shift was 17 hours beginning at 2.30pm. Lack of sleep might be a factor here. DH works in an entirely unrelated profession, but has good friends who are teachers, and frequently has a good laugh at them when they throw out such complaints as having to do marking after school.

It’s in common with many many working
people though?

I don’t really know what the solution is for essential jobs. Including my own.

I think a degree of common sense is required. Although teachers have an abundance of holidays, they are also parents and loved ones that require to attend certain occasions, whether they be graduations, funerals and weddings etc.. Surely these can be accommodated. ps... I'm not a teacher, just a parent who is happy to have great teacher's in my child's school.

Not a teacher but work with third level and have had some experience of cross over in teacher training projects.

Ireland ranks third behind Estonia and Switzerland. This is mainly due to our broad curriculum which will suit more children. Our approach to teacher training changes quickly in recent years
, curriculum change process has improved not perfect but definitely can see the progression.

Ireland isn't a mini UK, a lot of times when I work on projects with UK participants there is the expectation that we run a UK mini system.

So things like our children tend to start school later, typically at five. Nearly all students progress to the Leaving Cert typically at age 18 and our uptake of third level is really high. I read here about having attained low GCSE results learners not having access to A levels.

There are significant European projects which input funding into education across all levels. We have recently introduced STEAM project work across all levels and there is investment and industry push in ensuring we will have a highly educated workforce to attract the big pharma, tech etc.

Our teachers do have a very hard job, that is education worldwide. But I think our system is more family friendly, with a respectful salary and benefits. My understanding is that isn't comparable in England.

I get the impresson that it depends school by school. I think:

• a day off your or your child or partners graduation is totally reasonable.
• a day off for your child, parent or sibling reasonable (if the wedding is on a weekday or if travel needed)
• for funerals off is reasonable

However, I also think:

• time off for your own wedding is unreasonable as it should be arranged in those

It all depends upon the circumstances

Would love that, with it I'll take only having to work my contracted hours, some flexibility to WFH, an hour for lunch and ability to go to the loo when I wanted. I'm sure parents would be fine with parents' evenings and meetings only being scheduled in standard office hours?

For those saying give up some of the holidays, we aren't paid for most holidays we are paid 4 weeks of the year like everyone else and we do work in the summer. We also pay the highest voices for holidays as we don't get to choose any of our own leave.

My fury reading this 💔🤬🤬🤬

@thisisasurvivor As you have worked in both systems I have to ask - why do you think Ireland scores well internationally on education?

i lived in the UK but did not have my children in school there. But they have longer days, more extra curricular stuff, seem to have more facilities in their buildings.

the education system in Ireland seems underfunded, schools struggle to survive, the “voluntary contribution” seems to help keep the lights on. What makes it work out so well in the end?

This. DCs English state school has similar rules to the original post- teachers can have term time off for specific reasons… not to just have a week in IBiza for eg but yes for life events, study, etc

DH is a teacher and his view (usually, I’ve not asked him today) is that having 13 weeks or whatever it is off per year is really quite nice. It’s certainly saved us an absolute fortune for one as we have no options for holidays childcare.

@Largebrownchair
You're correct, the government does not pay for a sub teacher for EPV days

In a small school the Board of Management would usually privately pay a sub for those days but in larger schools, pupils would be split up among other classes

Presumably under your proposal any out of hours work such as marking or parents' evenings will be eligible for TOIL?

@Largebrownchair there is need for a bit of joined up thinking from Early years into Primary.

Yes I know in my area in Dublin the local schools will steer children with potential support needs towards our school as it has a lot of teachers who went back and retrained in special education and some in Autism support, I understand St Pats has great teacher courses.

It is working out well but fully appreciate it isn't the norm. I do think there is something to be said about having a larger SEN support cohort in one school versus very little in a multitude in a small geographic area.

Exactly

UK trained
Worked in Dublin a few years ago

Started at 9am
Kids left at 2.30pm

Planning was light so took around an hour max a day
Marked as I went along through each day
Once a month kids left at 12.30 for the monthly staff meeting

It was such a pleasure teaching in this system
I could never return to the UK to teach

No ofsted nonsense
No regular observations
Checking marking

Allowed to get on with the job and really enjoyed it

UK teachers are outstanding and they work so so hard
I hate the system for how they are treated

Well, yeah... that's why I came back to Ireland after years teaching in England. I made sure to buy my house and set my life up here because I deserve three month holidays every summer. 😎

Yes, I think the larger schools are better placed to provide SEN support at the moment.

In general, that's not something parents know or think about when choosing a school. In many cases (of neurodiversity in particular) a child entering school won't have a diagnosis anyway. So parents often don't know what they'll need in the future.

You want professional level results, but you treat the professionals working to deliver those results as if they were untrustworthy underlings...

How is that working out for England in terms of -
International rankings?
Ability of school leavers to read, write, do maths?
Teacher retention?

Why wouldn't a teacher stay for their career? They do CPD and bring a wealth of experience.

There are lots of jobs for teachers in Ireland. All the schoolsnar working towards taking on more to run SEN classes, language classes and to reduce ratio.