To think my midwife is being slightly ridiculous over bonding with my unborn baby?

I haven’t read the full thread as the first two pages seemed to be comments along a similar line, so apologies if I’m repeating. I think it may depend a bit on where you live as to what advice you’re given. For example, Medway NHS currently has a campaign called ‘grow my brain’ which sounds like it incorporates similar advice to what your midwife has told you. The scientific evidence behind it is around reducing the release of cortisol by creating a safe environment for your unborn baby. It may possibly be more applicable for situations where there is a lot of shouting or maybe DV in the household, but I guess they have to give the advice to everyone.

I wouldn’t worry about it too much. I spoke and sang to my now toddler all the time when I was pregnant, and DH did the same, but with my current pregnancy I’ve had days where I haven't even thought about being pregnant (less now as I’m roughly the size of a small elephant). I don’t think number 2 will be any less developed or loved and I’m sure we’ll bond fine once they're here.

It is absolutely understandable to be anxious and be scared to become attached given your experiences. Even without having loss, I was still anxious about becoming attached in early pregnancy. However, once I was out of the riskiest period I have relaxed and bonded. I don't talk to them all the time, but I will tell them it's time for us to go to bed or that we're going for a run, ask them if they're having fun when I can feel them moving a lot, or tell them they're coming to an important work meeting with me today so that they can learn how to win arguments against Daddy...

The midwife isn't talking complete nonsense, but is overstating it somewhat. There is some scientific evidence that bonding in pregnancy can impact on long term mental health for both you and baby, and on neural developmental outcomes for baby post-birth. Just as stress and cortisol can impact negatively on the environmental conditions for baby, love, connection, and attachment results in a neuroendocrinological cascade that as well as assisting with bonding, also promotes wellbeing and reduces anxiety. Think of it like hugging someone you care about - it creates that release of hormones that makes us feel good and happier in general, not just more connected to that person. You can be fine without that, but those interactions make us feel good and warm and fuzzy. However, baby also cannot hear you until about 16 weeks - at which point the neural pathways are formed. It's not impacting on that side of development in the way she has implied.

However, the crux of it is that notwithstanding that, your midwife is being unreasonable to expect you to just be able to switch on those feelings if you are still feeling very anxious about becoming attached, and are emotionally protecting yourself from the risk of greater further heartache, which is absolutely understandable and natural. She should be focusing on reassuring you, rather than admonishing you for how you are feeling, and the impact of what she is doing is just going to lead you to not talk to her about this stuff, which is literally part of her job. If she continues to be unsympathetic, consider asking for a change of midwife.

It may be that once you've got through some (more) scans, tests etc and have some scientific reassurance that little one is doing ok in there that your anxiety will settle a little and you will be able to relax into the later stages of pregnancy. If you continue to feel very anxious, it may be worth considering whether a referral to perinatal services, or speaking to a counsellor, even if just for a session or two, may help you to feel more supported. If it's an option, it's also important to speak to your partner or loved ones about how you are feeling.

And of course as others say, baby can also hear you talking to others and going about your day once they can hear. Whether those have the same impact depends on the types of conversations you usually have: lots of fraught and stressy work conversations with difficult clients, or an environment with verbal abuse or domestic abuse isn't going to be the same as baby hearing lots of soft, kind, gentle and loving conversations between you and your loved ones, or hearing you sing along happily to the radio in the car or the shower or while you're cooking.

Ultimately, if you have the conversations and do the things that make you happy and reduce your stress, baby will benefit from that, so try and prioritize those things: be it exercise or yoga, or having a kitchen dance party to Taylor Swift, those things will help both of you be happier and healthier long term.

I wish you and little one all the best.

If you don’t mind me asking, how far along are you?
I think it is common to feel like you do, especially in your circumstances, as you process and get used to the idea of being pregnant and prepare for having a baby.
I hadn’t had any previous losses but I had severe anxiety in pregnancy and for months, I refused to get excited or plan too much ahead for fear that something might go wrong.
At the time I didn’t acknowledge it was anxiety, I thought it was rational.
But, once my baby started to move, I started to feel different. I wish I could say the anxiety got better but it didn’t, it just shifted focus (and I really wish I had asked for help and been honest about how I felt looking back but I didn’t).
However, I started to think of the pregnancy as a an actual baby, little by little.
don’t think I ever really talked out loud to my bump, but I would pat it and rub it.
I finally went into a shop one day and bought a couple of baby things and put them away, then a few more and more.
I started thinking about names.
I noticed patterns like she didn’t move much in the mornings, I reckon she was asleep, but once I got to work and started talking she would kick like crazy.
I suppose I started naturally bonding with her and that made it so much easier when she was born because the anxiety that was already so bad and i had been hoping would go away once I had my baby safe in my arms, well it got much, much worse and I got extremely depressed too.
That can happen when all the hormones suddenly drop and you’re sleep deprived and overwhelmed with caring for a newborn.
I feel like the one thing that really saved me was the fact that I had already started to bond with my baby because that gave me the strength I needed to get through it.
The reason I say this to you is because, I think if you haven’t started to feel the beginnings of a bond with your baby at all as you get near to your due date, I think that could be a sign of problem anxiety or depression and I would strongly urge you to seek help before you actually have your baby. I really wish I had.
I think it’s natural to sort of distance yourself mentally in order to protect yourself from hurt but unfortunately it can then become very hard to get out of that mindset. I don’t know about neural pathways etc, it sounds like the type of thing people come out with about perinatal mental health which although well meaning actually makes you feel worse. You can’t control how you think or feel, telling you if you don’t feel a certain way you’re damaging your baby’s development is not helpful, it just makes you feel more guilt and shame. And I don’t think you need to actively do anything like talk to your bump if u don’t feel like it, but if your feelings don’t change as the pregnancy progresses, it might be a good idea to consider whether it could be anxiety and look at accessing help with that x

I was thinking along the same lines, maybe she’s encouraging you to believe all will be fine this time around, which am sure it will be.A lot of women including me had a previous, first loss but the next pregnancy went well.I understand how you feel. IMO though she’s overdoing it or is batshit😁Maybe that’s what midwives are told to say these days?

Yanbu! Her advice it stupid!

This is such a lovely post and I wish I’d read it when I was pregnant. Congrats on your baby x

Bonding is very important for newborns, they need lots of cuddles and interaction to form a healthy attachment, plenty of research around the importance of early attachments and the lifelong impact, so don't think you don't need to be doing anything in the newborn stage. I point this out because of your comment about baby not understanding until 6 months.
In terms of bonding during pregnancy I do think that is going a bit far, the midwife is maybe worried that you not bonding with unborn will impact how you manage when baby is here. I don't believe it will make any difference to baby during pregnancy though as long as you are still taking steps to protect your unborn they will be getting what they need to develop.

I think you might be on to something.

MW is trying to make Op bond with baby because Op is frightened, trying to preserve herself, prepare for the worse. Understandibly so.

Op you aren't going to do your baby any harm. Look after yourself whatever way you need to.
I know a child born in similar circumstances, mum had bare minimum for baby, Granny got sent shopping for pram after the birth.
Zero issues with mum bonding with baby.

I wonder if she maybe wanting to encourage you to bond to ward off any potential pnd without telling you that. Being detached throughout the pregnancy, whilst understandable might make it difficult for you to bond once the baby is here. Maybe you could speak with a counsellor about how to trust to be able to begin the bond before baby comes along and deal with the traumas to help make the transition easier xx

Also op, just to say and not to freak you out, but after a high stress pregnancy it can be more common for mums to experience PPA or PPD. Often because we're so glad they've arrived safely that we feel we can't complain about the hard bits or to come across ungrateful, or we can minimise how hard it is because of how hard the pregnancy was. Any way you find to manage your stress now will set you up well for managing that if it does crop up. I had bad PPA and speaking to my hv was the best thing I could have done.

Hi op, how far along are you now?

I guess on a basic level there's some evidence to suggest that babies can be affected by high cortisol levels which comes from stress and anxiety. So perhaps this is your midwife trying to reassure you and help you find ways to soothe yourself and connect to the pregnancy, your body and baby. I guess similarly it makes sense that if you've high levels of happy hormones baby would share in those too? I have a very high stress job and I didn't know for sure if the science was solid but it was a good reason for me to try and really manage my stress levels in work.

I had a high risk pregnancy and we thought repeatedly that I was mc during it, it was terrifying and so upsetting and it definitely made me very wary of getting too attached because I was scared of losing a baby I'd grown to love. I felt like I'd only be able to relax and enjoy it when ds was physically in my arms and safe and healthy. In didn't want to announce my pregnancy to anyone outside of family/ my manager after 3 months but as I was off work on bed rest it was really isolating and dh kind of pushed me to do it (which was the right call because to see me you'd have known anyway).

But then a friend told me that I deserve to have the happiness that comes with pregnancy. No matter what happens I deserve the excitement and the build up and to think about the future because this was a joyful and much wanted thing.

So I started to talk to my bump, and touch it more and it felt so strange at the start. Like pointless and like I was just talking to myself etc etc but it got so much easier the more I did it and I started to really love that I had ds with me all the time. I named him and called him by his name because I personally wanted to know a little of who he was if it didn't work out and I went from wanting to keep myself at a safe distance to wanting him to feel as much love and connection and safety as he could for as long as I had him and as long as i had the chance to provide that safe space for him. Obviously that's just how I processed it and everyone is different.

Your feelings op are completely and totally valid, natural and understandable. It makes complete sense that you'd feel this way. But it sounds from what you've posted that this is going well and your midwife is trying to reassure you that your body is doing exactly what it's meant to, baby is growing exactly as they're meant to and you also deserve to enjoy this. I wouldn't worry too much about jumping straight to talking to baby etc etc but maybe it's about starting with other things that would just connect you to your body. Like some breathing exercises, meditation or pregnancy yoga. Just to manage the stress of it all. And then you can build from there at a pace that feels right to you.

I'm wishing you all the best.

Hi OP,

im a child Psychologist and specialise in development- attachment is a huge part of that

I think that your midwife has good intentions but I also think that maybe some of what she has said has been taken out of context with her miscommunicating or misinterpreting something she has been tought. Yes, your baby has neural pathways being laid constantly. Your baby finds your voice soothing. Your baby is already attached to you, you begin to lay out bonds more substantially in relation to what she has said after they are born. At that point all the things she has said are absolutely true. Talking and looking into their eyes.. All those things lay the foundation going forward. You cannot transmit your thoughts to your baby. However, if you are feeling very stressed or anxious you willl be producing more stress hormone, cortisol, which can also impact on your baby. Unless you are significantly unwell it won’t have any impact on them. In the same way, when you talk to your baby or about them you produce more of the love hormone, oxytocin, which again will pass through. The only time we would really be worried about this pre-birth if is you were suffering with severe MH problems. A little bit of anxiety and stress are normal (and protective) during pregnancy.

I wonder whether she was really trying to encourage you to speak about to the baby a bit more for your own attachment allowing you to begin to believe that they might actually be here one day. Because they are there already. I too have had miscarriages and it absolutely resonates with me what you have said, I couldn’t allow myself to buy anything at all until 30 weeks and I couldn’t tell anyone I was pregnant until at least 5 months. I was avoiding connecting fully to my pregnancy because it would’ve been so painful if I’d lost it again. The thing I found is that you can try to prevent those feelings by avoiding but it doesn’t work … it still feels horrendous if it gets ripped away from you, allowing yourself to enter fully in the pregnancy doesn’t feel any worse if you do lose your baby but at least you get to experience some of it in a positive way. So if you ever feel able to fully engage with it.. I would really recommend going all in.

I did finally get my baby and it was worth the wait, good luck OP- it sounds like you’re already a great mum by even thinking about these things

I've voted YABU because

My first baby passed away 2 hours after he was born. When I fell pregnant with my 2nd son I'd already had multiple miscarriges and I had zero faith the pregnancy would continue

I wanted it to. But in my heart I felt like it wasnt going to. I didnt bond to my baby at all, I loved him, but not like I should it was like a far away distant love that I couldnt properly feel

When he was born I still expected him to die. I developed severe PND and did not have a proper bond with him until he was over a year old.

Shes gone about it very clumsily but I get what shes tried to say, if you dont bond with your baby now there is a high chance you might not when their here and it's so difficult

I'm with you, and I am sorry for your loss. Your midwife is being too pushy and insensitive. She should leave you alone to cope in whatever way you need to.

I miscarried my first pregnancy. In the subsequent (and ultimately successful) pregnancy with DD1 I refused to buy anything until very late on, and didn't allow myself to believe even for a moment that I would be having a baby at the end of it. I felt that if I did start to believe then thing were sure to go wrong again, so I didn't. I think it is a fairly typical reaction in the pregnancies which follow a loss.

When DD1 was born we bonded just fine. She's 29 now and all good.

Don't worry. As others have mentioned, your unborn baby can hear your voice and heartbeat throughout the pregnancy and is already familiar with these anyway by the time they are born.

Load of tosh.

I had a MMC, then couldn't get pregnant for 2.5 years. We got pregnant through ICSI, only embryo. I couldn't believe I was going to take home a baby either. So I didn't "bond" in pregnancy. The bond I have with my son is now very strong.
Second time round, I still couldn't really bond while pregnant. I just wasn't a pregnancy fan... Bond with my second is just as strong.
I bond when my babies are here... So don't worry.

I had multiple losses. I understand how you're feeling. What helped me was to think that if I lost this baby I wanted to know that he had been loved even if he hadn't lived. I found comfort in that when my pregnancies didn't survive. I think it helped me to bond with my babies that did too.

Sounds like nonsense to me too. My DC was born after a loss and totally understand how you feel I felt like held my breath for months, didn't tell anyone until I was 20 weeks. When you have had the experience you have its much harder to come to terms that everything can be OK this time around xx

When your baby is born they will recognise your smell and your voice and those things will help them feel safe and bond to you (further). No active effort required from you to set this up 😊

Sounds like a hamfisted attempt to make you feel better and ease your fears a little. The baby doesn’t know what’s going on out here and not does she care - all she needs from you is a steady stream of spicy hot cheerios and chips with ice cream when she demands it. You’ve been through a hell of a time forget the midwife’s nonsense and take care of yourself x x

There is evidence to suggest its a nice thing to do - that baby can hear your voice and that it knows thats the voice that can keep them safe and loved 😀

I don’t remember being recommended to do this but I was pregnant with my DS 21 years ago!

This is from the nhs website from near where I live (below) all this stuff is not compulsory though - I think you need to do whatever is right for you and whatever you feel comfortable with. Pregnancy loss is so difficult (I had my first one 23years ago) so just go at your own pace and do things your way ❤️❤️

Talking, Singing & Reading
Your unborn baby loves to hear the sound of your voice. It calms them and helps them to will start to build the connection between feeling safe and secure and you. They are not worried about what you say or how you sound.

• Talk about anything to them; what you are doing, how you are feeling, what you need from the shops!
• Sing favourite songs, nursery rhymes or something you’ve made up – you sound great to your baby.
• Read a magazine, a children’s book - anything at all. It will give you and your baby the chance to tune into each other and all the time your baby will be getting to know familiar and safe voices.

Firstly, whatever you choose to do, you will NOT be damaging your baby. I totally get where you’re coming from about pregnancy after loss, I’m pregnant now after a late loss and only recently now I’m near due date have I started daring to make pregnant friends.

The bonding stuff is for you. It can make it easier for you to understand and stay calm when you’ve just given birth and are sleep deprived, and hence settle baby easier. Babies recognise sounds, movements, taste and light from within the womb once they’re out.

You asked for info:

• have you signed up to the NHS weekly updates? They give info in bite size chunks. You can scroll back through updates as well. https://www.nhs.uk/start-for-life/pregnancy/week-by-week-guide-to-pregnancy/ I still get updates for my 40month old and it can be an aha moment!
• Apps like Pregnancy+ and Period Calendar give the size of your baby and a line or two about the development that week. Like they can hear you now, they respond to light, they can blink, or close and open their fist. I really like the Pregnancy+ app because you can see the baby and sort of prod them on the screen. There’s loads out there that give info like that, my Garmin app did the same but I took that off early on as it was making me anxious about heart rate and disrupted sleep. https://philips-digital.com/pregnancy-new/
• India Rakusen released “Child” podcast this year. It’s lovely to listen to, tracking the baby from conception to 1st birthday. Episode 6 is about loss so maybe skip that for now, episode 7 is “Are they what you eat?” Which talks about how in utero experiences mould baby https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001v4dd/episodes/player?page=3

With my first pregnancy I used to cradle the baby and rock them while I was bending over or on all fours when they were kicking lots and sing to them - this same movement calmed them once they were out. With this pregnancy, the baby definitely responds each evening to bedtime stories of their older sibling. I haven’t had time to do all the stuff I did with the first pregnancy, but they hear me speak loads to their sibling so I hope that’s enough!

Again please don’t worry about this, you’re completely right, baby considers itself an extension of you for the first 3 months anyway, they don’t have the brains to understand it further than that, but you do and these bonding exercises can make those early months easier when your baby isn’t able to smile back or give feedback. I recommend a baby massage class, I felt that made the biggest difference to me understanding my newborn, understanding their eye contact and physical cues to know if they would be receptive to play or touch or they wanted to be left alone because they’re over stimulated. They also taught things like how to help them with reflux and tummy troubles.

Yes! I have been watching The IT Crowd!
It would also be in a calming monotone, essential when dealing with the art department.

I'd say trying to avoid stress is one thing (although it was the crappy NHS maternity services that caused all my stress!) - but looking for ways to bond with your unborn baby is just not necessary. The baby can't help but be bonded to you!

OP, your baby isn’t going to be damaged if you don’t talk to her in utero. That wasn’t a helpful way to put it and you don’t need to pile more worries on top of what you’re already feeling.
But she’s already a real baby, even before birth. She’s already listening and she’s already learning to recognize you. You are all she knows at the moment. So you can talk to her and she will hear you. She won’t understand what you’re saying and no, she won’t be able to tell the difference between you talking to her and you talking to people around you. But we tend to talk to babies in a special way. Higher pitched, exaggerated sounds, slower. Researchers sometimes call it ´motherese’. So talking to your baby now might mean they recognize and prefer it when you talk directly to them (in that distinctive way we talk to babies) once she’s born. You could also sing or read a story and the same recognition will happen. There’s a bit of a difference between hearing music being played in the room and your baby hearing you sing - the sound of your voice will travel through the and through your bump to her ears, but also directly through your body - like what happens if someone (like a partner) is speaking to you while you have you head on their chest - you hear the vibrations of their voice through their body too.
So basically, don’t worry about this, you aren’t damaging your baby in any way and as so many PPs have said, bonding can happen when she’s born or even a few or months after that. But it isn’t pointless or weird or entirely for your benefit to start talking to her now. She’s already real and she’s already listening, whatever might happen in the future.