To think if you can no longer afford school fees...

Genuine question - what's the counter argument? I get that in the short term families who have to leave PS won't be able to do this but long term (5 years plus) I totally see it happening. If a family that can borderline afford private decide to go state they have so many resources to chuck at it to ensure they get into the best which means someone else won't.

Yes they are just for the elite. It’s better for all of us if the middle classes go back to state schools. Because then we will have the voting power to get state education properly funded and resourced- to have it levelled up.

@Tandora

"So private schools are just for the mega elite ? The aspiring middle class should know their place. Sounds ace for social mobility"

Private schools are overwhelmingly used by households in the top income decile, outside of this the proportion of children from every other income decile is close to 0, not 1%, close to 0.

Outside of this, the reason for student attending is down to household wealth or grandparental help rather than bursaries etc.

They aren't used by the middle classes, and they aren't bastions of social mobility.

Biscuits have VAT

They only have VAT added if they’re covered in chocolate. Normal biscuits are VAT free.

how about that nobody else anywhere charges VAT on education?
Everything I have read states that “most” countries do not tax private school fees, which means some do. For example, Greece charges 23% VAT on private school fees.

people always conveniently forget that the vast majority of people paying for school fees are already contributing far, far more in tax to the treasury than the people going on about unfair "tax breaks."

As a % of their income, poorer people pay more overall tax than richer people. This is because poorer people have to spend all their money on essentials that include VAT, whereas the better off, the top 7% that can afford private school fees have so much disposable cash that they hoard it into tax shelters and get higher tax relief on pensions.

I understand that.

But that doesn't automatically equate to private provision. Some state schools can also provide this. I think that's all people are trying to get across.

Sigh @FourOfDiamonds

"It may not happen straight away but in five years time those families that would have gone private will be manoeuvring to get into the best grammar and state schools"

Most of the country doesn't have grammars, and the people that send their children private almost always live in the catchments of great state schools.

In reality the majority of people won't move, it will be the few that are on the margin, this is unlikely to create great disruption.

So private schools are just for the mega elite ? The aspiring middle class should know their place. Sounds ace for social mobility 👍🏻

It's not insane.

People just don't agree with that argument.

I think it's such a short sighted policy and the same about everyone being gleeful now.

It may not happen straight away but in five years time those families that would have gone private will be manoeuvring to get into the best grammar and state schools. They'll have loads of money to chuck at tutoring or buying in the right catchment and push less wealthy families out of those places and down the ladder. I was already stressed about schools and now knowing I'll be competing with those families makes it worse.

I'd like to think the extra money from VAT will be spent to improve the state system to mitigate this but I find it hard to believe.

Have they budgeted for that?

They are not few and far between. I keep seeing these assumptions made about state schools.. Of course there are some bad ones but nothing like such a negative picture as some are making out.

I don't know their personal circumstances but if their area is so dire why can't they consider moving? There is great provision out there that you don't have to pay for.

I'm aware that the EHCP process isn't for the faint hearted but I have lots of friends who have appealed successfully. It can be done and will be if its warranted. In order to be able to currently afford private they must have considerably more resources than the average parent to navigate the system. I hope they are successful.

"As a start, how about that nobody else anywhere charges VAT on education?"

In Europe, there are either no fees on university education or they are incredibly low, why is the UK different?

"Also - people always conveniently forget that the vast majority of people paying for school fees are already contributing far, far more in tax to the treasury than the people going on about unfair "tax breaks."

Then they will be easily able to afford it then. As high earners and the wealthy, they also benefit far more from society than most, it facilitates their earnings, so it is only right that they contribute more.

"It's not a tax break, FYI. It's just not, and never has been a vatable purchase. You don't say that when you buy a pack of biscuits, you're getting a tax break do you?"

Biscuits have VAT

Finnish private schools are subsidised by the state.

And taking a place from another child who could have benefited from it. It’s insane that people aren’t realising it just means they’ll be less school places in the best schools as ex PS kids will likely be in catchment and take them. Odd.

Finland have private schools. They are not allowed to profit from the basic element of education though, so the state funds that part. Private schools in Finland are subsidised by the state.

I fully accept the above. I don’t accept that private school should be availvld tax free. Taxes are charged on everything else you list- VAT, stamp duty, council tax, etc. Why should a luxury like private education be tax exempt?

As a start, how about that nobody else anywhere charges VAT on education? There's a reason for that.

Also - people always conveniently forget that the vast majority of people paying for school fees are already contributing far, far more in tax to the treasury than the people going on about unfair "tax breaks." It's not a tax break, FYI. It's just not, and never has been a vatable purchase. Like many, many other things. You don't say that when you buy a pack of biscuits, you're getting a tax break do you?

OP doesn't give a shit.

The fact that you think that's what private education is all about says everything. And such disdain for your niece.

My son attends private school because my husband and I both suffered crippling anxiety at horrible state schools. His private school is small, homely, with small class sizes. There is no bullying whatsoever and there is never disruption in class.

Compare and contrast to my school where children carried knives, bullying was rife and unchecked, children ran amok in classrooms where teachers were scared to discipline. I don't care what exam results he'll end up with one day or what he wants to do for work after school. I just want him to be happy and not suffer what I went through at school.

@Willyoujustbequiet this is not correct that if their needs impact them they will have an EHCP. It SHOULD be the case, but it isn't in many many many many cases. There are many many many FB support groups for desperate, exhausted parents battling the system to fight for the support their children desperately need. SEN provision across the country is broken (acknowledging there are some exceptions).

OMG OP - use the quote button! This thread just reads like the random ramblings of someone sat in the pub in the corner talking to themselves.

Quote the messages you're replying to then, there will be some semblance of a discussion?

@Willyoujustbequiet yes there are indeed. But few and far between.

Do you not think this family have explored every avenue state wise? Or driven themselves to mental ill health to try and get an EHCP? In our area of the country, SEN provision in the county as a whole is likely to go into special measures (probably using incorrect terminology here) because it is woefully inadequate. There are literally no other options for this poor girl in this area.

Maybe I got the wrong end of the stick.

I just saw people talking about SEN. My children are NT and I cannot imagine how difficult it must be to manage.

My DH also have a life limiting disease and I emphasise so much with pp with a husband with a liver issue. To uproot your children in that must be awful.

and then all these posters talks about resilient children are in general (probably their children) and how they have good state schools suitable for their children nearby.

it just makes me sad.