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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

That restaurants should know parmesan isn't vegetarian?

360 replies

SpikyCoconut · 13/06/2024 16:11

My Mum has booked this restaurant and asked if I want to come along.

Surely the chef should know this?

https://www.315barandrestaurant.co.uk/

Wibu to get in touch with them and ask if it is actually a parmesan substitute (in which case it should be labelled correctly!) Or if they can develop a different dish that actually IS vegetarian? There are two dishes with parmesan on the vegetarian menu.

315 Bar and Restaurant, Lepton, Huddersfield – 315 boasts fine dining, luxury accommodation, an invigorating health spa and so much more

https://www.315barandrestaurant.co.uk

OP posts:
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8
Thelittleweasel · 14/06/2024 20:46

@Elphame

Never trust soup in a restaurant if you're vegetarian!

Sennelier1 · 14/06/2024 20:41

I think that you, the customer, chooses where to eat - or not. If it says parmiggiano in a good restaurant it probably is the real stuff and you can choose whether to eat it or stay away from it. The chef can do whatever he/she wants to do, It's not up to the customer to decide what goes in the dishes - and I know from experience that a lot of cooks truly believe cheese is vegetarian.

S0livagant · 14/06/2024 20:18

Maddie212 · 14/06/2024 20:04

I personally think the idea of anthropomorphism is nonsense. Humans aren't the only animals who've evolved emotions and connections to the offspring. Look at primates, look at dogs.

As much as I'd like to believe it's true, I'm sceptical of farmers claiming it's common for cows to be crap parents, that goes against evolution for that to be the norm, especially for mammals where the infant is vulnerable - but would of course support his profession.

I've heard that some breeds are more maternal than others, particularly that Highland cows are very attentive mothers. I guess because of where they have been raised, it's a more essential trait?

NeverEnoughPants · 14/06/2024 20:16

DuesToTheDirt · 14/06/2024 18:14

OK I stand corrected! Blush

You were only partly wrong. Parmesan is a protected term - but only within the EU. So it was protected in the UK until relatively recently.

laylababe5 · 14/06/2024 20:14

Vegetarian is quite a loose terms. Lots of people consider themselves vegetarian but eat eggs and dairy products. Someone who doesn't eat any animal products is vegan in my book.

Maddie212 · 14/06/2024 20:04

I personally think the idea of anthropomorphism is nonsense. Humans aren't the only animals who've evolved emotions and connections to the offspring. Look at primates, look at dogs.

As much as I'd like to believe it's true, I'm sceptical of farmers claiming it's common for cows to be crap parents, that goes against evolution for that to be the norm, especially for mammals where the infant is vulnerable - but would of course support his profession.

CatModel · 14/06/2024 20:04

toomanytonotice · 14/06/2024 19:47

I follow a dairy farmer on instagram.

apparently cows are shit mothers and often calves need to be removed anyway as the dopey idiots will lie on them, or kick them, or just not bother.

they’ve posted some interesting details re all the emotional language around “babies” being “ripped” from mothers, when I’m reality the cows don’t give a fuck.

we do often anthropomorphise animals. As long as they live comfortable pain free lives I don’t think many of them worry about the injustice of “cages” etc.

personally I applaud anyone who puts in any effort thinking about animals and the environment. Even if someone has one meat free day a week, if 200 people did that it’d probably have the same effect as one vegetarian. I don’t get the vitriol and judgement against people who aren’t “proper” vegetarians because they had a bacon sandwich once. Better one bacon sandwich a year than think fuck it, I can’t do this vegetarian thing, I’ll just go back to eating meat daily.

small steps by everyone will have a bigger impact than the one vegan who thinks anyone not completely vegan might as well not bother.

My family were dairy farmers and he’s talking bollocks. I’m not going to get into the morality of what people eat, but of course dairy farmers will try put that narrative out there. The very basics of looking at your sources.

I’m vegan because of what I saw growing up. I don’t judge others because it’s still very much the norm to eat meat and the propaganda/misinformation on both ‘sides’ is unhelpful and confusing to people. I also don’t think judging is productive in discussion about it as people tend to just dig their heels in rather than listen to each other.

toomanytonotice · 14/06/2024 19:47

I follow a dairy farmer on instagram.

apparently cows are shit mothers and often calves need to be removed anyway as the dopey idiots will lie on them, or kick them, or just not bother.

they’ve posted some interesting details re all the emotional language around “babies” being “ripped” from mothers, when I’m reality the cows don’t give a fuck.

we do often anthropomorphise animals. As long as they live comfortable pain free lives I don’t think many of them worry about the injustice of “cages” etc.

personally I applaud anyone who puts in any effort thinking about animals and the environment. Even if someone has one meat free day a week, if 200 people did that it’d probably have the same effect as one vegetarian. I don’t get the vitriol and judgement against people who aren’t “proper” vegetarians because they had a bacon sandwich once. Better one bacon sandwich a year than think fuck it, I can’t do this vegetarian thing, I’ll just go back to eating meat daily.

small steps by everyone will have a bigger impact than the one vegan who thinks anyone not completely vegan might as well not bother.

Demonhunter · 14/06/2024 19:35

S0livagant · 14/06/2024 19:09

Agree only vegans can really judge. I've been judged for eating locally raised meat by vegetarians who happily eat supermarket dairy though.

Thing is I don't really judge in general, because there are many beliefs and practices in life I don't believe in but others do. All my opinions here are what I believe but I don't ram them down peoples throats as some vegans/veggies do, or act morally outraged all the time, because as @Lovepeaceunderstanding says, non of us are 100% guilt free.If someone asks me however, I'll tell them.
I saw vegans pushing vaccines during covid that were being tested on a multitude of different species, most irrelevant to the human immune response, to the extreme because of the speed they wanted them out and ripped me to shreds for pointing it out.
It's just hypocrisy I don't like and the attempt at shaming others, when they themselves could be shamed for the very point they're making.

KirstenBlest · 14/06/2024 19:27

@SpikyCoconut , I said about the options for vegetarians, they don't look great! I've never heard of a 'sweet potato burger' before actually! But it sounds like an awful texture. Like offering someone a mashed potato sandwich!

I don't think the menu options look bad, but they are pretty much the standard veggie options on most menus and seem uninspired. There's nothing that makes me think, 'That sounds intriguing', more 'Here we go again - goats cheese, beetroot, veg filled pastry, risotto' but bonus points for no mushrooms or butternut squash risotto.

The sweet potato burger and potato chips meal shows lack of understanding of what makes a balanced meal. A chip butty would probably be an improvement. Smile

The food might be delicious but it looks like another menu created by an omnivore who thinks this is what vegetarians like.

S0livagant · 14/06/2024 19:09

Lovepeaceunderstanding · 14/06/2024 18:51

@Demonhunter , I am not perfect but those that don’t give a shit have no right to judge me. You do. 🙏🏻

Agree only vegans can really judge. I've been judged for eating locally raised meat by vegetarians who happily eat supermarket dairy though.

SpikyCoconut · 14/06/2024 19:05

I am seeing that some people are missing the point I was trying to make, and others completely understand it. The moral debate is interesting however, I didn't expect so many responses!

@ButWhatAboutTheBees that's interesting logic. So things from bones aren't vegetarian, but things from an organ are?

Vegetarians don't eat anything from the animal, that you have to kill the animal to obtain.

Vegans don't eat any animal-produced products at all. So yes, including honey, milk, eggs etc.

@Snooglequack yes the calves are-but vegetarians generally still consume other animal products. Male calves are a bi-product and are killed as a RESULT of the dairy industry but not FOR the dairy industry, which is the distinguishing difference-I am talking factually, not in terms of morals here!

@Caerulea I did think the vegetarian options looked very drab and boring myself, but that could be a matter of taste-some people on this thread have said they look good.

The majority of vegetarians eat cheese, eggs and milk. That's what distinguishes them from vegans. The point is some cheese isn't vegetarian because of rennet (& sometimes other ingredients).

If a meal contains ingredients from a calf's stomach, it isn't vegetarian. Other types of cheese, yes.

I've never known a vegetarian who would deliberately eat parmesan-it usually contains animal rennet-although yes some alternatives are available. I have emailed them to ask anyway.

That customer sounds insufferable! I wouldn't go to a restaurant with a particular meal in mind that I wanted, if I knew that they didn't sell it, that's just odd. Like going to McDonalds and asking for fish and chips.

@Dibbydoos that's awful that pizza hut did that! Was it rennet that made it non-vegetarian?

@KirstenBlest as I said about the options for vegetarians, they don't look great! I've never heard of a 'sweet potato burger' before actually! But it sounds like an awful texture. Like offering someone a mashed potato sandwich!

Good point about the pesto-to be fair, there are a lot of vegetarian pestos about now so I didn't think that worth mentioning as much as parmesan which isn't a vegetarian cheese.

@Barleysugar86 maybe, or maybe she doesn't know?

I think some foodies would object to a parmesan alternative being the default option rather than real parmesan.

@squashedalmondcroissant that's absolutely awful-I'd understand if you said it was 20 years ago or something but surely it'd be better to just do a pizza without cheese? Most pizza doughs don't contain anything non-vegan and if they usually do, surely the restaurant can make/obtain some that doesn't!

You sound like you were a 'proper' chef (by which I don't mean, qualified/experienced etc. but who embraced what the job actually is!). I know a chef who is scornful of anyone with dietary requirements.

There's a 'proper chef' at a restaurant local to me who, as you've described, really likes it when someone with a vegan/gf/whatever attends as it gives him a new challenge.

@skyfalldown you're a pescetarian.

I take people's points about the vegetarians being perfectly able to avoid those dishes/this restaurant but that isn't the point I was making. They shouldn't put something that isn't vegetarian into a dish that they then state is vegetarian. If they don't know that, they should IMO.

@TheLazyToad cauliflower steaks are an insult IMO-and often almost as expensive as a meat dish.

@TheHateIsNotGood yes, it can be made vegan on request, I read that. However my issue wasn't that it wasn't vegan, rather it was that is labelled as vegetarian when it isn't. Many vegetarians don't want no cheese.

@Chickenuggetsticks vegetarians do eat cheese-but not ones that have animal rennet in them.

@Floorbard a lot don't. A lot of vegetarians like cheese, cream, eggs-they often wouldn't want a vegan option.

@Demonhunter the moral argument is valid but a different matter altogether

@mathanxiety I don't think anyone would go as far as to say moral stretch to bacteria!

@TriesNotToBeCynical that, again is exactly what I meant~!

@Goldiefinch yes! I've seen a lot of that sort of thing unfortunately. Pizza without cheese-same price as one with. Basic tomato pasta sauce no meat, same price as if it had meat. Strawberries and cream without the cream- same price.

@Isittimeformynapyet I almost sat and listed them all Grin mine was an oversight to be fair, rather than me not knowing it was incorrect

@HollyKnight leather is not a by-product.

I do tend to agree on using all parts of an animal rather than killing something and wasting much of its body, however by definition vegetarians do not eat a part of an animal.

I am of the stance that someone whose living it is to know about food, should know about food.

@SapphireSeptember I am going to point that out to them-if it isn't 'real' crab then they need to label accordingly.

@Castle0 as @Mothership4two says, I am not sure why that's relevant? Nothing to do with my question.

@Anyotherdude my point is, I feel a chef should know these things. It's literally their job.

The treatment of calves has been mentioned to me many times as to why people turn vegan from vegetarian. There's a saying 'Every glass of milk contains a slice of veal'.

@kkneat which chain is that please?

@IbizaToTheNorfolkBroads which is that? Thank you for the recommendation!

@RubyOrca What I might choose to eat was not related my query. my AIBU was that I expect chefs to know about food and ingredients.

'Get this angry' -I am not the least bit angry.

I wouldn't call a vegetarian someone with a very restricted diet either. More so now while eating out, according to a lot of vegetarians who are not happy that most vegetarian options now are also vegan.

No, I don't know that. Because they labelled it with a 'V' and it also includes parmesan-unclear.

@Bellaboo01 la does it say there's an alternative cheese that's veggie friendly?

@DuesToTheDirt I've known it since I was a child-I understand why many wouldn't question it, but a chef should?

@WoosMama13 I may have come to agree, then I saw the other mistakes on he menu (some pointed out on this thread).

OP posts:
KirstenBlest · 14/06/2024 18:57

Did you mean pecorino cheese @MixedCouple2 ?

Not being picky, but I'm going to Tesco shortly and could get some.

MixedCouple2 · 14/06/2024 18:53

I had a sinilar experince at a 4* reaturant. Veggie options with rocket and parmesan garnish. I did point it out to the server and told them to remove it. But a lot of people are absent minded.
The only alternative I found was Porcino Cheese from Tesco it is similar to Parmesan and it is Vegetarian. I don't like the vegan alternatives they don't taste right at all.

Lovepeaceunderstanding · 14/06/2024 18:51

@Demonhunter , I am not perfect but those that don’t give a shit have no right to judge me. You do. 🙏🏻

Demonhunter · 14/06/2024 18:47

Lovepeaceunderstanding · 14/06/2024 18:23

@Demonhunter , even (nearly all) vegans eat plants that in their harvesting and production have caused death or suffering to wildlife. It is impossible to be absolutely perfect, he who is without sin caste the first stone…
Some of those who encourage the ill treatment of animals it seems would rather point out the imperfections in those who do the best they feel able to, to avoid animal suffering as if our undoubted sins eclipse and absolve yours; they do not. Own your decisions.

I am vegan, I'm aware that all suffering of wildlife is unavoidable when it comes to harvesting. I am however also aware of the cognitive dissonance required to eat dairy happily knowing what humans are PURPOSELY doing to cows and their calves to get it. Getting the hump about the death they suffer and the consuming of their bodies after they've been tortured and inhumanely had their calves ripped from them, for a product not needed for human survival. We are the only species who cages, tortures and forcibly impregnates another species on a mass scale, to then take their newborn offspring away, so that ADULTS of a different species can consume the milk meant for the offspring. Imagine they did that to human women!

Lovepeaceunderstanding · 14/06/2024 18:23

Demonhunter · 14/06/2024 13:52

She's right though. Can't be holier than thou about rennet claiming you wont eat anything from animals if you happily eat dairy knowing your cheese and milk that you love so much was produced by forcible impregnation of cows and then have the calves ripped from their mothers and fed formula so you can have her babies milk for yourself. The cognitive dissonance is astounding.

@Demonhunter , even (nearly all) vegans eat plants that in their harvesting and production have caused death or suffering to wildlife. It is impossible to be absolutely perfect, he who is without sin caste the first stone…
Some of those who encourage the ill treatment of animals it seems would rather point out the imperfections in those who do the best they feel able to, to avoid animal suffering as if our undoubted sins eclipse and absolve yours; they do not. Own your decisions.

DuesToTheDirt · 14/06/2024 18:14

JusteanBiscuits · 14/06/2024 18:10

No, Parmesan isn't. Parmigiana Reggiano is.

Edited

OK I stand corrected! Blush

JusteanBiscuits · 14/06/2024 18:10

DuesToTheDirt · 14/06/2024 17:06

Oh I know it's an old article, but even then vegetarians had known for years about rennet, so why celebrity chefs writing vegetarian cookbooks didn't seem to know is a mystery.

As for "Parmesan", maybe it's been said on this thread, but it's a controlled origin cheese and always contains rennet, though you can get similar substitutes with a different name.

No, Parmesan isn't. Parmigiana Reggiano is.

WoosMama13 · 14/06/2024 17:52

I would tell/ask them. Hopefully it's a printing mistake and it's actually an alternative. Sadly though, it's too often lack of care and knowledge about dietary choices and requirements.

DuesToTheDirt · 14/06/2024 17:06

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 13/06/2024 21:26

That’s from 2012. It isn’t impossible to make Parmesan without animal based rennet, plenty are made with vegetarian rennet.

Oh I know it's an old article, but even then vegetarians had known for years about rennet, so why celebrity chefs writing vegetarian cookbooks didn't seem to know is a mystery.

As for "Parmesan", maybe it's been said on this thread, but it's a controlled origin cheese and always contains rennet, though you can get similar substitutes with a different name.

DaisyStarburst · 14/06/2024 16:58

Why not just ask the restaurant? I did this at a local restaurant, they didn't know that parmesan wasn't vegetarian and thanked me for informing them. It was an Italian restaurant where they come round with it so I just had the meal without.

MsAGog · 14/06/2024 16:18

I like the idea of buying local produce, something to explore

S0livagant · 14/06/2024 16:04

I don't think trying to buy higher welfare meat, milk or eggs is futile at all though. I see the cows when I buy my milk, the calves of both sexes are kept with their mum and then separated overnight from about 5 months.

S0livagant · 14/06/2024 15:43

MsAGog · 14/06/2024 15:32

Interesting, thank you. I buy organic milk (and meat as far as possible) but it seems a bit futile. At every corner, there is something else. Like when we all bought free range eggs thinking it was high welfare.

I buy organic eggs if I buy from the supermarket as the stocking density is lower, but usually local eggs where I know the conditions. If you live in a city you can have higher welfare eggs delivered.

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