Child s education

Of course it is not always about the school. However, many kids are driven by the values of their peers and are not thinking independently. They perform better in ambitious and focused on education cohort than at school with poor result.

There will not be a single system even if grammars and faith school were scrapped. The segregation would continue driven by ££ you have as it is now- private schools and property prices around the well performing schools. Just as it is now ..

⬆️ This!

Similar situation with my now 17yr old. Went to a supposedly 'lesser' secondary but came out with top GCSEs & is predicted top A Level grades. It's not ALL about the school.

What makes you think I’m not against grammar schools?

Thia country needs a single system of well funded comprehensive schools that don’t discriminate on the grounds of wealth, religion or IQ.

in your case you bought an expensive house in a good catchment.

@NicoleSkidman

I think it is not very fair to be against religious schools but not against grammars that drive the level of sourrounding comprehensives down, and supporting property prices that are really dictating the school for a child.
Either we are against any segregation or leave it as it is.

You are to quick to jump into conclusions creating false assumption Not everybody in this borough has a family or moved because of kids. Actually, a lack of mobility in this very sought after borough is the problem for the local estate agencies. I have been living here for the last 28 years and I moved because I got a job here. My 11 years old boy was not even in plans neither I have met his dad when I moved to this borough and later this house. And the house I live in was 4 times cheaper than it is now when I bought it.

I’m opposed to segregating children on the grounds of religion for obvious reasons. I’m also opposed to segregating children based on the colour of their skin or their parents bank balance, or any other reason. However, we all want the best education for our kids so we do what we have to do. In my case I went to church and got the priest to sign a form, in your case you bought an expensive house in a good catchment.

@NicoleSkidman

I live in South West Greater London. There is a variety of schools nearby. The closest secondary CoE schools are probably 15 miles from here in Ealing Borough. They don't have any impact on the local cohort choices because nobody here is in their catchment. I don't think there is any CoE nearby at a secondary level. There are other faith schools here: Catholic and general christian schools accepting baptised kids from any christian denominations. We have primary CoE schools and these are far more relaxed with the faith practices than Catholic schools. Atheist are unlikely to send children to the local Catholic schools because honestly, there is a lot related to religion happening there. Yes, it is different with CoE where the religious aspect is minimal.
Almost all primaries here are 👌 excellent. Good or Outstanding so it is no problem. The very best results here among the secondary state schools have the schools that have no faith denomination. Grammar and few comprehensive. The housing prices in the catchment for the comprehensives are what stops children. Not faith schools which are full of foregin kids from the countries where faith matters.
So it is not really faith segregation down here but affordability of housing. Muslims can equally send child to the best comprehensive here as long as they live in expensive catchment.

I am somewhat surprised that you believe in stopping religious segregation in schools but you decided to send your child to CoE school.

Our experience of the faith school system is clearly very different.

“I am convinced that no firm atheist would subject a child to a faith school because it is conditining value system of a child from the early age.”

Well, you’re speaking to an atheist who has done exactly this because where I live the CofE schools are so much better for all of the reasons I have already explained (nothing to do with the fact that the kids are religious or the curriculum is different - because neither of those things are true). All of my good friends (who are also atheists) have done exactly the same and plan to do exactly the same for secondary school to.

The CofE system is self selecting for white middle class families. It is exceptionally unfair and shouldn’t be allowed in a secular democracy. The result is an extremely diverse Neighbourhood where kids are separated by race for age 4 with the white kids going to the CofE schools and the Muslim kids going to the academies.

@izimbra

How much of that is down to teaching and ethos, and how much of it is down to the impact of religious selection on the socio-economic demographic of the school?

Look at the Catholic schools around you. Progress 8, Attainment and GCSE results, please. Then look at the same of CoE results. Catholic schools have often results nearly as good as grammar schools. And who attends those schools?

Look at the languages they take at GCSE. Many of them are Polish, Portuguese.
In addition you will find many Irish kids and other nationalities. Catholic schools are very diverse when it comes to background.
Because the Catholic schools are full of children of immigrants. Hardly an affluent socio economic demographic group.
Seriously, I know kids attending 5-6 different Catholic schools.

@NicoleSkidman

where is your evidence for this?

it is simple. Most of the Catholic schools have very good GCSE results. Better even than CoE.

What is so different about the curriculum that would lead to different results?

Cathehism, Catholic ethos, value system, service to others, stricter expected behaviour and so on.

Is the curriculum not the same as any other non-academy state school?

Actually most of catholic schools are voluntary contribution academies and many are in the process of converting into it. The curriculum is somewhat diffetent when it comes to teaching RE, ethical topics and so on.

My local schools are CofE and the parents who suddenly start baptizing their kids and going to church are not religious.

because it is similar situation as with Catholic schools. Most of those people came from CoE, their parents or grandparents were churchgoers. They may even have been baptised but not practicing until it came to the decision about schools.
You absolutely have a right to disagree and I respect the difference in our opinion but I am convinced that no firm atheist would subject a child to a faith school because it is conditining value system of a child from the early age.
My local CofE secondary has an 11 page admission policy that is insanely complicated.

in what way? I am asking out of sheer curiosity

Some think you have to be baptised and to have taken holy communion. Some don’t realise there is also a distance criteria

and... a child doesn't need to be baptised? Thay would be odd.
yes, there is a distance criterion by parishes ( catholic) or in km.
I think that many parents are not bothered to read the admission policy. Nothing complicated.

“the Catholic curriculum drives them to have good results” - where is your evidence for this? What is so different about the curriculum that would lead to different results? Is the curriculum not the same as any other non-academy state school?

You’re still focusing entirely on Catholic schools. My local schools are CofE and the parents who suddenly start baptizing their kids and going to church are not religious.

I also disagree that the admission criteria isn’t that complicated. My local CofE secondary has an 11 page admission policy that is insanely complicated. I’ve spoken to so many parents who have completely misunderstood the process. Some think their is an entry exam, whereas it’s actually a banding exam. Some think Catholic practice is treated the same as Anglican practice. Some think you have to be baptised and to have taken holy communion. Some don’t realise there is also a distance criteria. It’s designed to allow them to weed out the families that they don’t want.

"But majority have good results."

How much of that is down to teaching and ethos, and how much of it is down to the impact of religious selection on the socio-economic demographic of the school?

"Reporting on her research before the Children, Schools and Families Committee in 2008, Rebecca Allen noted that ‘In my most recent research… I was able to show that religious schools have higher ability and lower free school meal intakes compared with the neighbourhoods in which they are located. To give you an idea of the magnitude of those effects, if we take a community school and a voluntary-aided religious school, both located in a neighbourhood with exactly the same levels of deprivation, the community school is likely to have about 50% more free school meal children than the voluntary-aided school.’
This was compounded by research by The Guardian published in March 2012 that found that 76% of Catholic primaries and 65% of Catholic secondaries in England had a smaller proportion of pupils eligible for free school meals (a government bench mark for deprivation) than the average for the first half of their postcode

@NicoleSkidman I guess the word "resources" was not a most fortunate choice but now I understand what you mean now.

The admission criteria are not that complicated at all. Far more complex are admission criteria to Grammar or private

I know you’re going to tell me that anyone could do this but all of the evidence points towards that not being the case where school admission is concerned

This is not the case because they are in fact not Catholic. In most cases people who suddenly start going to church to get the child to school come from a Catholic background and are baptised but just have not been attending.

You certainly wouldn’t get a Muslim family going to church and pretending to be Christian because it would not be acceptable to them or the church

And they wouldn't feel good at Catholic schools because it is not only about admission, the whole ethos and RE are in line with Catholic practice.

Where I live there’s a huge Muslim population and all of the best state schools (primary and secondary) are faith schools which means they are not available to them.

They are best exactly because they are Catholic. Strip it to non-religious school and the results will be much lower. The thing is that the Catholic curriculum drives them to have good results

Where I live there are also Muslim secondary schools- private.

Well, in the UK you have faith schools, you have grammar schools which are selective, private that not everybody can afford, and great comprehensive here and there but the house prices around them are a barrier for most of people- I don't think only faith schools are to blame. We live in capitalist and segregated society I am afraid

I mean they have the wherewithal to read and understand the very long and complicated admission criteria and they have the time and freedom to attend weekly church and make friends with the priest. I know you’re going to tell me that anyone could do this but all of the evidence points towards that not being the case where school admission is concerned. You certainly wouldn’t get a Muslim family going to church and pretending to be Christian because it would not be acceptable to them or the church. Where I live there’s a huge Muslim population and all of the best state schools (primary and secondary) are faith schools which means they are not available to them. How can that possibly be fair?

And my experience is with CofE, not Catholic schools. Although, where I live it’s the same middle class white families also gaming the Catholic system.

@NicoleSkidman

they simply have the resources to get baptised and attend church every week for years leading up to the admission deadline.
What do you mean by ...resources?

The result is a highly selective school on the grounds of class and race.

Meaning that Polish, Irish and Portuguese are the upper middle class in this country?

Catholic schools are full of people from Ethiopia or India. Catholics are in many places in this world.

how tedious, there’s not much more boring than school bore parents.

Access can state open but the lived reality is very different.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean that your DC were refused entry to a school based on their religion? Because that is illegal now for Irish Catholic schools.
Schools take student selections very seriously. For example, if a draw is necessary because of llimited places/too many applicants this often takes place in a solicitor's office to ensure all is above board.

If you mean there's too much religion ( eg first communion prep etc) once you're in the school then that is a problem I agree.

Of course you’re absolutely right, OP. State schools discriminating on the grounds of religion are exceptionally unfair. Sadly this is also the system where I live. There’s always someone who claims that religious people should be able to go to religious schools but let’s be honest, the people going to these schools aren’t religious, they simply have the resources to get baptised and attend church every week for years leading up to the admission deadline. I would wager than 5% of the kids at our local (outstanding) CofE state school are actually religious. The rest are highly educated, middles class, white families who understand how to play the system. I know this to be true because I know many of the families and I also know many of the families in our local primary school intend to game the system too.

The result is a highly selective school on the grounds of class and race. This is why it gets exceptional GCSE and A Level results, not because Christian’s are inherently smarter or harder working, or because faith schools teach kids to have good ethics and morals as some people like to claim.

@Marblessolveeverything In UK there is also a subject called RE in every school that teaches about major religions and comparison. In many schools it is a compulsory subject at GCSE. But in most of the Catholic schools they have additional hour where they learn Catholic version of religion- catechism.

All state education should be secular.

Well but if that is the case then there should be also no grammar schools or any other segregation.

Yes, the Catholic schools exist in UK because they are delivering excellent results and are hugely popular. Catholic schools are hugely diverse as well and a lot of children have parents with foreign origin

@TheChipmunkSong not in Ireland. There is a curriculum that teaches about six religions not engage in practices.

But I hope you realise that the 5 percent that is multi denominational has to participate in Catholic practice at school. I would not play down the amount of Catholic practice at Catholic schools. That may be challenging for somebody who is e.g. muslim, sikh or atheist . I can imagine that would be ok for an othodox or a protestant.

Exactly, and how many families go ahead with communions and confirmations in Ireland because their DC are in a Catholic school and they don't want them left out. I imagine the rates of children taking the sacraments would be far lower if the government waved a magic wand to make all schools non denominational.

Even here in NI, Integrated schools are still Christian, just not Protestant or Catholic. DH's abiding memory is alternating the version of the Our Father that was said in assembly.

All state education should be secular.

My sister in law was like this about her catchment secondary school that was Ofsted outstanding. She would drive me mad going on and on about it.
I would just make a rather obvious segue in the conversation every time and that helped a little.
In my head I would just think my kids would be fine and that turned out to be true. My kids had a great time at their lesser school and bit better exam results too. My kids will also get contextual offers at uni which will help them.

@Pottedpalm
There are various Catholic schools in UK depending on diocese location. They differ in the admission criterias. Some require just a Certificate of Catholic Practice and proof of baptism. But there are some where the priest has to specify if the specific familly attends the mass once a week, once a month and for how many years he has known the family for. Some look even at when the baptism took place and accept only if it was within first two years of child's life. Some schools are coeducational some are not.
The same is with the religious curiculum. One nearby school have 1 h of religion per week and every week a mass. Second has rarely mass at school but 2 h of RE per week. Retreat is in all 4 schools that I know.

So I would say that the Catholic schools vary a lot. But majority have good results.