To think bullies and evil people never change even when they grow up?

I think that unless they've had some sort of intervention or massive personal revelation, they've just learned better social skills.

@CoffeeCantata - exactly - cruelty and waste. If we all lived by “Do unto others” we’d all be ok. No need to be religious, it works in any setting.

I think bullies are of several types. Dh went to a rough comprehensive and was picked on for being “posh” (because mil made him wear the correct uniform and he was a swot). He was pushed, shoved, jeered at, pursued home etc.

I went to an all-girls school and yet was subject to real meanness for this and that. Snide remarks, sniggering, secret nicknames . In my first job I encountered Mean Girls led by a Queen Bee. Frankly they sent me on a downward spiral.

I think some people - even from childhood - sniff out the weak or vulnerable and enjoy pawing them around like a cat with a bird.

I’m really sorry you experienced that at the school event. That’s awful - she’s a pathetic person! Clearly she’s not evolved as a person and for her to be a mother too urgh.

I’d be reporting her to the school as a safe guarding issue taking photos / videos of people other than her kid!

I don’t think the OP was judgemental- just describing some of the bullies she’s met.

If you want an example of a judgemental post read your own:

‘Opine on their awfulness to make yourself feel better.’

i must admit i dislike the term "bullying". It sorts of puts a"=" sign between playground spats, friendship fallouts and full on physical or sexual assault, targeted harassment, psychological torture. Like on the other thread someone said a dirty look or snide comment is bullying. Well no, these things are not the same.

Good point. What OP is saying works both ways... might of been an angel at school. Later on in life.... could all change.

I know someone who was a bully all through school (always loved animals tho but seemed to hate people). She says it was literally like she developed a conscience at 16/17 and was suddenly floored with guilt for everyone she’d hurt. She apologised to them and really struggled with guilt/ self harm for several years. I’ve known her 20 years, she works for a charity helping vulnerable people and I’ve never seen her be unkind to anyone. So yeah I think some bullies can change.

It's not karma in the way 99% of people interpret it. She did not die as some kind of divine retribution for how she treated people.

It could be karma in the sense that she made decisions that affected and shaped her future, and it seems extremely obvious that she was an absolute wreck of a human who was long on a path of self destruction. That absolutely does not make it OK that she bullied you...but if she couldn't make decisions that worked to her benefit, I'm not surprised that she couldn't treat others decently when she couldn't look after her own best interests.

I think that's where a lot of people fall down when they look up their old bullies and see they've done well. They may have treated you like dirt and that is not OK (although children don't have the emotional maturity that we often put on them). But if they made good choices and worked hard in relationships and careers, it shouldn't be too surprising if they succeeded there, with the obvious caveat that some luck is always involved, from good health to being in the right place at the right time. They don't get punished with health problems or shit jobs or early deaths because they bullied someone years before.

Precisely.
My bully at senior school made my life absolutely miserable for 5 years, she knew exactly what she was doing. I heard years later that she abandoned her children and husband, became a drug addict and died of AIDS. I am not gloating at all, it’s very sad, but I do wonder about karma.
I have been bullied all my life until I retired. I sincerely hope that ward sister who made my life hell gets karma heaped on her. She should never have been nursing let alone in a position of authority.

Well OP said this guy used to torture kittens so..🤷‍♀️

OP described them as "decent citizens, family people and caring parents". Her words. I certainly think those descriptors would say something about a person's character. YMMV.

Reflected not rejected *

Ohfuckrucksack · Yesterday 15:47
Also, 'evil' is dictated by society's values.

In one society an action would be considered 'evil' e.g hurting animals, hitting children, allowing euthanasia, death penalty, circumcision whilst another society accepts this and does not consider it so.

I don't know about 'evil' but I think there are absolutes, not reliant on specific cultures, but common to humanity.

My personal belief is that there are only 2 things that I consider'evil': cruelty and waste. Pretty much everything bad in the world comes under one or the other of these categories!

@sixtyandsomething @decionsdecisions62
Absolutely people can reflect and mature and change but I would find it unlikely that someone who was truly vile at school and had rejected and matured would have no recollection or minimise their behaviours.

True change would involve accepting and acknowledging the hurt they caused.

I know people who have changed. They know fully well how awful they were and they deeply regret it even if they had shit going on in their own lives. If they ever run up against their targets they take the opportunity to apologise and if the victim is not able to forgive them then they accept that.

This. Most people age out of this kind of behavior.

Hurt people hurt people. Most of us have grown up and aren't the same people we were when we were kids. I was bullied terribly as a child. And only one of those bullies still is that person, just a grown up version. The rest are nice, normal people.

I think all those who say that bullies change gloss over the consequences for their victims. A lot of children are bullied because of their perceived sexuality. Nasty little homophobes who have life long effect; just one example

DD's bullies haven't changed. Now in their mid twenties.
And I'm afraid I don't believe they were all abused. They certainly flocked together as birds of a feather do though... and magnified one another's horrible behavior.

Meanwhile DD's self esteem never really recovered. An eating disorder resulted, and remains stubbornly in place. I'm afraid I haven no faith in those young women. Nasty nasty children and people.

ManchesterLu · Today 14:10
Kids are just so inexperienced with life and consequences of their actions. You don't know why they acted as they did, but lots of them will have been having terrible times at home. It's not an excuse, but an explanation. I know my DP openly admits to being a bully at school, and is mortified when he thinks back - he's lovely now, and has apologised to a few of the people he bullied (one is now a good friend).

You are not the same through your whole life. Your experience shapes you, and often bullies were victims themselves.

It's great that your DP has reflected and tried to make amends.

But I'm coming from the perspective of have a daughter who was subjected to awful bullying at school. She's over 30 now, but bears those emotional scars. She's never really managed to have many close relationships and is mentally fragile - her self-esteem was wrecked by some of those children, who have incidentally gone on to have happy and successful lives and careers.

They were all affluent, middle-class children, many with church-going parents.

Kids are just so inexperienced with life and consequences of their actions. You don't know why they acted as they did, but lots of them will have been having terrible times at home. It's not an excuse, but an explanation. I know my DP openly admits to being a bully at school, and is mortified when he thinks back - he's lovely now, and has apologised to a few of the people he bullied (one is now a good friend).

You are not the same through your whole life. Your experience shapes you, and often bullies were victims themselves.

I think YABU. Child bullies are children – they quite literally haven't developed all the physiological and emotional maturity to fully grasp consequences or empathy, especially not in a manner that is apt for the complexities of the real world. Of course a child bully may never go on to develop a good sense of these abilities or concepts, but it's terribly over simplistic and unreasonable to suggest that they simply can't.

This.
Especially revealing are all those stories about poor undeveloped bullies with bad background and hard life, which do not mention a single word about the victims of the said bullies. Nope. Who cares about the victims. Poor bullies all around.
Yes, I am very angry about this and don't find it acceptable.
Rant over.

I find this especially frustrating when it is teachers' reasoning as to why bullies cannot be disciplined at school. In fact you're the villain if you make a stink about it. But they will surely come down like a ton of bricks every time when a child tries to defend themselves.

I think the issues however can be life long; some children commit suicide. It should be taken more seriously than it often is, and probably earlier. There have been a few cases of children being unable to handle other children “being a shit”

Someone that bullied me through year 7-9 became a good friend in 6th form. To the point we'd go clubbing together.

They apologised for what they did to me. I also apologised for the really rude and hurtful things I did back in response. To this day I still feel bad for what I did. It crossed all boundaries.

People who bully at school don't always bully as adults. Sometimes they had their own shit going on and lacked the brain development to empathise with others. The part of the brain allowing empathy doesn't fully mature until mid twenties. Kids by definition also lack awareness and experience. It is entirely possible to grow out of being a shit, and also to regret past bad behaviour. Morals and ideas change around us as well. And before social media existed, people just forgot about problematic views they may have held in earlier eras. Or things they said/did attempting to be funny that they'd now see as punching down and vicious. But we are all the protagonists in our own movie, so none of the villains OP describes will actually see themselves that way.