Why do people say ‘all the parties are as bad as each other’ ?

How exactly do you know that Keir Starmer is dishonest, Rishi?

You need to read their manifestos and work out what’s important to you.
I generally like Lib Dem and Jo Swinson was brilliant. However, I’m not keen on Ed Davey and so far not heard anything that makes me want to vote for them.
Now, bearing in mind I really can’t give a fuck about climate change, I’m considering voting for the Green Party, because they are the only ones who are going to introduce a wealth tax on the super rich. Something I feel strongly about.

Bitter, bitter experience.

Ha. My FiL says this to excuse voting Conservative.

The Brexit vote has been a total win for dodgy tradespeople. Massive wage inflation on trades as European trades have left the marketplace, and no need to offer quality work as demand outweighs supply, and often cash in hand too, so not even contributing to the system.

Because if you've lived through a succession of both Labour and Tory governments, you know that this really is the case.

The Opposition, when duly elected, usually realises within six months that whatever they said during the election run up, is totally undeliverable. Then there is a long period of blaming the now current Opposition as to why they are unable to do what they said they would, things are much worse than anticipated, insert applicable excuse blah, blah, blah.

Plus ça change and all that.

Couldn't agree more, Araminta but I had a link from a poster previously about whom to tactically vote for to oust Conservatives. That is my priority so I'm going with it, however much I despise Labour. If I had the choice (and it actually made a difference) my vote would be for one of the others, Liberal perhaps?

I would LOVE to vote for a party that I felt actually had the interests of the country and its people at heart but, they're all liars. If they didn't start out that way, they develop and hone the skill as soon as they are in power.

You should vote for whomever you like. I must vote for a party I can't stand because the other one is one I can stand even less. That's a sad place to be.

My local MP is Labour and he is actually really good. He must have a strong stomach.

Starmer just changes his mind to whatever makes him look best at the time. Also did you see when he said he wouldn’t let his family use private healthcare even if they needed it? What a liar

I say "all the parties are as bad as each other" when what I really mean is "let's not get into a raging row about politics because I honestly can't be arsed."

I don’t get why people just blindly vote the same way all their lives with no chance of them ever voting otherwise. My parents being prime examples. So many people do this.

@Araminta1003 From reading the complaints about the treatment of women on some MN Threads many will not be voting for Labour, Greens have made fools of themselves over Palestine/Israel. A few candidates being investigated for tweets and soc med advocating violence. So will we still use Green as a Protest Vote?

@User2460177 I think it's both (so I guess we agree). There are larger forces that shape all administrations, and a sort of pendulum when one approach has clearly failed.

But people still matter. I don't think Thatcher's reforms would have happened under another leader (perhaps over many decades). Brexit is the biggest one.

I suppose the fact that leaders often leave past policies in place could be an argument for either view. Perhaps that happens because it's larger forces. Or perhaps it's proof that individual leaders matter, because their major reforms often don't get overturned.

If you've lived through several rounds of Labour, Tory, Labour, Tory, etc, etc. You realise they all promise the earth but deliver very little. They spend the first term or two blaming the government they took over from on why they can't do what they promised, by which time they feel they don't need to stick to those promises any more because 'things have changed' over the last x years. So we vote them out and around we go again.

@PollyPeachum - but surely there won’t be any traditional Labour Voters voting Reform?

I just got a Reform leaflet through the door. I tore it up with great satisfaction.

Working class people absolutely deserve to be paid a fair working wage and have fair working conditions rather than being underestimated by traditional Labour policies and propped up with benefits and treated like slaves by Tories in a feudal way. I do understand the frustration. Despite my own privilege.
Society would be far better if there were less discrepancies between earners.

@Kendodd Most working people wanted the cheap labour that was provided by the foreign workers curbed. They wanted to be able to earn decent wages so we could live as a family in our community.
Trades people could not compete with the low prices charged by cash-in-hand blokes living in shared rooms and working 15 hours every day. Those guys had nothing else to do their families were a long way away. British living at home wanted to spend time at home and see their children.
Now we have to endure road blocks and demonstrations deemed peaceful that cause delay and inconvenience. Nobody cares,
Result,- only Reform offer to listen.

It’s said by the politically illiterate as a way of not having to engage with actual policies, or do any actual thinking.

I don't think that's generally true. Many of the most politically illiterate are the tribal voters who are absolutely certain who they'll vote for and will not admit that there are bad points, blind spots, liars and incompetents in all parties.

People say 'They're all as bad as each other' out of frustration. Frustration at having to work out what is the least bad option instead of having a party you actively want to vote for. I'm not a tory. I would like to be able to vote for a Labour government, but haven't decided if I can vote for this one.

“Your comments about Brexit are ridiculous. I’m not accepting responsibility for it, no way. People were misled by dishonest propaganda encouraged by Tory leave MPs, most in the ERG. In fact the Tory party was infiltrated by Brexit party/UKIP members because they felt so comfortable with fellow Brexiteers.”

And this basically sums it all up -does it not. Poor poor people who got misled and do not have agency? Stop underestimating the general population and public. People vote and they voted this way (or least those who showed up). It was a close call. But the British public sadly voted for Brexit. And in 2019, the Labour Party put up Corbyn against Johnson despite Corbyn being unelectable. So they are also to blame.

We can all go on blaming each other forever more. Or we can move on and try and make this country better again. Whatever party that may be. This time it will be Labour, most likely.

I never said Euan is corrupt. I said he is privileged and used his network. He had a good idea and got funding, because he is privileged and has a good network. Starmer is also privileged and lives in a nice house in London. People are not bloody thick. They do not expect our Labour politicians to be poor. They know they have to be able to walk the walk and talk the talk with business.

There would be small differences yes, but not large ones. Eg the Labour Party of the70s were battling against the control and power of the union and Blair was happy to leave thatchers unions legislation in place. Major was already growing public sector investment but perhaps wouldn’t have done it as much as blair.

Any intelligent adult realises that each party has benefits and drawbacks. And the two main parties don’t have radically different policies. Hence why people say they are the same - they are very similar.

you have said that you would support Labour no matter what. That’s fine but not everyone is the same as you. Lots of people are less tribal about politics

Or in other words @Diefrausagtnein - my kids will get their network from me and DH and our extensive friendships and business connections. It has nought to do with where they go to school. The school network would only kick in once their mates actually are in senior management! By which point they have probably mostly lost touch and it will be their uni mates they network with, in any event. It is totally overegged.

And the aristos and global elite have their own network anyway. You are either one of them or you are not (ever heard of Google). Even if you get a bursary to Eton, you still will not be in their club. So what is the actual point you are making?

@Diefrausagtnein - so now because I am passionate about Education and voting Lib Dem not Labour, I am not allowed to have an opinion?

The private school parent network is overdone. I went to Cambridge, I use my network all the time and the alumni network from work and Linked In and everyone I meet.
I am happy for Euan to use his as well. I just said it is what privileged people do. Not sure what schools and how they are funded have to do with any of it. Do away with public schools and people will still have a big network. It is the case in all countries all over the world, regardless of “private schools”.