To think that this really can't be true about young people's thoughts about Israel?

The truth is that Jewish and Palestinian peoples ARE both indigenous to the region of Palestine.

The entire problem is best viewed as two national groups of peoples who cannot agree on what should be done with the ancestral homeland they both belong to.

Most people in this thread are NOT part of a problem where peoples with ancestral links to the same land cannot agree which results in partition.

The Middle East peace process HAS to be framed in that way in the long run.

Once again, most posters blatantly ignore the reality that the Middle East conflict has been Israel v Arab States including Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Iran in addition to Iranian proxies such as Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis of Yemen.

There's big gaps in most people's knowledge which shows they also don't really understand the Middle East Region as a whole.

Libya, Cuba, Ireland and South Africa- all wild terrorist nations. Every single one with greater moral clarity than Israel will ever have until it faces up to the fact that it is built on the rubble of the Palestinian villages it burnt and destroyed.

What??? How on earth have you got to that? Can you actually read?

Nowhere has @noblegiraffe said anything of the sort, nor implied or hinted as such. Your accusation is as baseless as it is abhorrent.

@noblegiraffe has been posting on MN for years and I’ve never once seen her post anything other than thoughtful, measured and respectful points. I suggest you respond in kind and post in good faith, using your brain and not allowing your emotions make a fool of you.

Does raping and murdering women and children in the name of a cause make you a terrorist?

Don't be facile. Both Hamas and Nelson Mandela have been given the title terrorist. It's entirely appropriate to ask what makes a terrorist and compare them. Anyway Israel would know about Manedela's terrorism given how closely it was involved in upholding, supporting and bolstering white minority rule in SA.

Is this your version of "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"? A nonsensical cliché pushed by terrorist organisations, their fellow travellers, gullible Westerners?

Oh, and Mandela remained a terrorist. Not just because his terrorist group mostly murdered civilians, not just because he never actually renounced violence from such groups but also because he supported PIRA telling them to keep hold of their weapons until they got what they wanted. Which thru didn't.

"Saint" Nelson isn't a great example for you to use. The man was supportive of dictators such as Fidel Castro and Colonel Gaddafi who also supplied PIRA with weapons.

Ooft, see the international terrorist network links between all these groups? 🤦‍♂️

You're not making much sense and that explains why you're now grasping at anything you can like a drowning person....

No, it was the United Nations as a COLLECTIVE who decided to partition the region of Palestine in 1947.

The Arabs rejected that deal due to wanting the whole region for themselves.
*
The UN had zero representation from Arab states. Nobody felt they ought to be asked. Nobody felt the Palestinains needed to be asked. This wasn't the UN as we know it. It was a legacy of empire. Also the Arabs wanted Palestine for themselves??? That's cos it was theres!!! I suppose the native Americans and Australians are similarly greedy right? I mean why oppose empire and colonisation. It's entirely nonsensical to want freedom, representation, dignity.*

So your saying Hamas - the people who killed over a thousand people and raped and kidnapped more - aren't terrorists?

Comparing those raping, murdering bastards to Nelson Mandela is deeply offensive, isn't it?

Nelson Mandela was a terrorist until he wasn't as were Aboriginal people and indigenous native Americans until they weren't which is invariably the point at which colonisation has succeeded. The US is a terrorist state for what it did in Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Libya not to mention the far east.
As for Israel being attacked...wow breathtaking revisionism. You think Israel is a peaceable nation? It created a multi million person refugee issue, it refuses a right of return to maintain its racial/religious dominance, it brutalises millions of people in the occupied territories. But it's best that you stick to official definitions of terrorism then you can always blames the stateless, the occupied, the victims for all the violence. It's an old playbook.

So your saying Hamas - the people who killed over a thousand people and raped and kidnapped more - aren't terrorists?

or this

Nelson Mandela was a terrorist until he wasn't as were Aboriginal people and indigenous native Americans until they weren't which is invariably the point at which colonisation has succeeded. The US is a terrorist state for what it did in Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Libya not to mention the far east.
As for Israel being attacked...wow breathtaking revisionism. You think Israel is a peaceable nation? It created a multi million person refugee issue, it refuses a right of return to maintain its racial/religious dominance, it brutalises millions of people in the occupied territories. But it's best that you stick to official definitions of terrorism then you can always blames the stateless, the occupied, the victims for all the violence. It's an old playbook.

No, it was the United Nations as a COLLECTIVE who decided to partition the region of Palestine in 1947.

The Arabs rejected that deal due to wanting the whole region for themselves. Palestinian Authority President Abbas admitted as late as 2011 that the 1947/48 Arab leaders were wrong to oppose the UN Partition Plan.

Following that, Arab States Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Jordan invaded Israel upon their declaration of independence.

That's FIVE against ONE and Israel’s army was also much smaller!

The following excerpts have been taken from the United Nations website:

www.un.org/unispal/history/

"Palestine was among former Ottoman territories placed under UK administration by the League of Nations in 1922. "

You can see in this link which countries were members of the League Of Nations in 1922 when Palestine was placed under UK administration.

www.britannica.com/topic/League-of-Nations/Members-of-the-League-of-Nations

"UK considered various formulas to bring independence to a land ravaged by violence. In 1947, the UK turned the Palestine problem over to the UN."

Under British administration, Palestine was NOT partitioned, but you will often hear people talking as though it was!

So, we move on to the actual partition itself:

"After looking at alternatives, the UN proposed terminating the Mandate and partitioning Palestine into two independent States, one Palestinian Arab and the other Jewish, with Jerusalem internationalized (Resolution 181 (II) of 1947)."

As we can see, the partition of Palestine was not created by the British Government alone.

The collective members of the United Nations made that decision.

"One of the two envisaged States proclaimed its independence as Israel and in the 1948 war involving neighbouring Arab States expanded to 77 percent of the territory of mandate Palestine, including the larger part of Jerusalem. "

The Office Of The Historian in the United States says the following:

"The Arab-Israeli War of 1948 broke out when five Arab nations invaded territory in the former Palestinian mandate immediately following the announcement of the independence of the state of Israel on May 14, 1948."

history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/arab-israeli-war

Whether you believe it was Israel or the five Arab nations who started the conflict, it is clear that the United Kingdom is not to blame for the partition as it didn't enact that plan.

Partition was a United Nations collective plan.

Personally, I would argue it was the FIVE Arab States who kickstarted the Arab-Israeli aka Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

And in the UK the vast majority of young people are NOT taught about the Middle East conflict. Nor are they well informed.

Fewer than 2% study it in History GCSEs. Only 27 schools in England teach it and 44 in the UK in total.

@noblegiraffe I can't believe how much shit you're getting because you admitted your son didn't connect the dots. Why would he have? It doesn't affect him in any way, shape or form. I was a teenager (just!) when September 11th happened. I 100% didn't understand the significance or the scale of what had happened. I just didn't. I didn't even know what the twin towers were. It only started meaning something to me the following day when my class mate said they still hadn't heard from her uncle and were very concerned, but even then I was sympathetic to her without understanding what had actually happened. I was 13, I didn't exactly spend much time watching the news.

Anyway, all that just to say keep ignoring those being rude to you about it and well done for realising he had gaps that needed filling in and then doing something about it.

No, it doesn't. 🤦‍♂️

Perhaps you should scroll a few pages back to see my point about the conflict being a security issue as well as Israel being under threat on SEVEN fronts with it all led by Iran, a Hostile State known for having links to terrorist groups internationally including PIRA, ETA & FARC.

Instead of land for peace, in the future there will be water for peace initiatives as part of the peace process.

And that's entirely legitimate since both deals are based on the European example of coal and steel for peace.

Indeed, at the start of each war Israel has been the one who was attacked. Lesson - don't attack a State you can't beat!

States have a right to defend themselves and their people.

Terrorist groups do NOT have the right to do whatever they want including using civilians as shields to try prevent a Sovereign Power's military operations. That's illegal under IHL and States CAN attack if Terrorist groups try this.

I'm not sure someone who accuses someone of defending war crimes simply for explaining the IHRA definition of antisemitism is capable of logical thought.

Why does this bother you so much? Jewish people finding the comparison problematic? It's very easy to avoid. Why won't you? There are lots of pro Palestinian supporters on here who manage to not make the comparison.

@noblegiraffe

So you don't think the Israeli government has forced people to move to Gaza, then built a wall round it, then controlled the access to and from it?

It doesn't prevent Palestinians in the West Bank from using certain resources?

It is isn't, but you have to admit the similarities are there.

You also can't justify the existence of a state based on the oppression of the people and then ignore the fact that the state is oppressing and abusing the rights of other groups of people.

what the actual fuck are you on about?

Like I said, @Aladdinzane , people know exactly which the Jewish state is when it comes to making antisemitism conspiracy theories about it.

I have no idea why you're wittering on about it not being a Jewish state just so you can compare it to the Nazis.

On top of wanting to redefine antisemitism, this is all quite odd.

@noblegiraffe

"They're also very aware when they choose to compare it to the Nazis." Its almost like ghettoising a certain ethnic grouping, then building walls around the ghetto, then controlling how they leave, what goes in and out etc has some historical precedent isn't it? "

I actually think you are blind to the comparisons, and you are now an apologist for war crimes.

@noblegiraffe No loophole, just an accurate point and one which is made every time Israel gets accused of being an apartheid state or having apartheid like policies.

So which is it? Is It a Jewish state or is it a multicultural one? If its a multicultural state you clearly can make the comparisons between the nazis and some of the actions of the Israeli government, if its a Jewish state, then you can clearly build the accusation of apartheid.

Whatever the answer comparisons can still be made because it isn't criticism of Jews as a whole but the actions of a government. Its the biggest "get out" clause ever.

I do love how Youtube videos and a badly worded and tiny survey with no numbers have led to people's defence of war crimes though.

I do think Israel should exist. Ideally. Fully on board with Jewish people having a nation of their own. That said didn't the UK just declare a big chunk of Palestine Israel after the second world war? Then the U.S.A. recognised it as a state? I don't think that kind of white , we know best, patronising colonialism cuts it with the youth of today. I'm not sure creating a jewish state leading to the Arab/ Israel war displacing millions of Arabs was one of the best well we're giving up all the pink bits so you might as well have this one decisions that were made. I mean the whole redrawing of the global map was pretty dire. The partitioning of India into India and Pakistan led to shocking acts of brutality and violence and that was a year earlier perhaps someone should of learnt that these things needed better management?

I wonder how many lives have been lost due to civil servants of yore drawing borders without thought to consequences. Or with thought to the consequences, possibly a bit of a long term fuck you to the Americans for making the UK pay for WW2. Being Israel's strongest ally is a poisoned chalice.

Feel free to ignore my ramblings but the point I was getting to is that with problematic birth of Israel I think it'd be entirely possible to produce a set of questions that would say that Israel shouldn't exist, or should be somewhere else. Always take statistics with a pinch of salt unless you know who is asking the questions and for what purpose.

So you think people who want Israel to be destroyed should be applauded, but you have the gall to accuse other unspecified posters of wanting the death of innocents.

He did know it happened at the time, he didn't connect it to the 'Zionist' and 'genocide' stuff he was seeing on social media much later. His social media certainly wasn't making the connection for him either.