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To think that this really can't be true about young people's thoughts about Israel?

635 replies

Another2Cats · 05/06/2024 19:52

So, I just read an article where they say they have done a poll of young people and, of those under 25, 54% said that they agree with the statement "the state of Israel should not exist". Just 21% disagreed.

Did the polling company manage to just randomly pick a bunch of people that feel this way, or is this genuinely how many young people feel?

IABU to think that this can't really be true? (I am quite prepared to accept that IABU and that this really is what a majority of young people believe)

The link is here:

https://unherd.com/newsroom/majority-of-young-britons-think-israel-should-not-exist/

and this is the text of the article:

A majority of Britain’s young people do not believe Israel should exist, a new UnHerd poll has revealed.

A preliminary finding of an exclusive survey of 1,012 voters about foreign policy, conducted by Focaldata and due to be released tomorrow on UnHerd, found that a striking 54% of 18-24-year-olds agreed with the statement that “the state of Israel should not exist.” Just 21% disagreed.

This finding dovetails with other UnHerd polling on the same issue. In a separate question, young respondents were asked who was more to blame for the war in Gaza. Half blamed the Israeli government, while a quarter answered Hamas. Only 19% responded “all equally”.

The war’s high degree of exposure online and on social media appears to have fuelled interest among Britain’s young. An AI-generated “all eyes on Rafah” graphic was shared more than 44 million times on Instagram recently, with pro-Palestine content also proliferating on TikTok. Critics have argued that the Chinese social media platform has deliberately promoted anti-Israel content, which TikTok has denied, citing the existing attitudes of its young user base.

These attitudes are reflected in further UnHerd polling, which asked young Britons about their level of interest in wars around the world. It found that Britons aged 18-24 are far more interested in the war in Gaza than they are in the Russia-Ukraine conflict or in US-China tensions. Among this group, 38% were very interested in Gaza and 28% were somewhat interested, compared with 19% and 44% who were very or somewhat interested in the war in Ukraine, respectively.

As the Israeli war enters its eighth month, public opinion has slowly shifted in Palestine’s favour. Historic polling shows that popular support for Israel was at its highest shortly after the 7 October attacks at 21%, but this figure has since fallen. Although young people were most sceptical of Israel before the attack, the overall level of support for the Jewish state over the same time frame has plummeted to 16%, according to YouGov figures.

As of this week, a new ceasefire proposal is on the table, and the US is pushing Israel to accept it. The deal would involve the exchange of prisoners for hostages and would pave the way for negotiations. A ceasefire has strong majority support in the UK.

Majority of young Britons think Israel should not exist

A majority of Britain’s young people do not believe Israel should exist, a new UnHerd poll has revealed. A preliminary finding of an exclusive survey of 1,012 voters about foreign policy, conducted by Focaldata and due to be released tomorrow on UnHerd...

https://unherd.com/newsroom/majority-of-young-britons-think-israel-should-not-exist

OP posts:
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41
Aladdinzane · 07/06/2024 12:23

"Palestinians welcoming them’. There were no Palestinians before 1964. A false construct by Yasser Arafat, an Egyptian himself. Jews were attacked and murdered by the ARAB population long before the State of Israel was created.

There was no ‘Palestinian’ land either. Jewish people are indigenous to the area."

There was Palestinian land, there were Palestinians. The Palestinian nationalist movement began just after the Zionist movement in the 19th Century. The area was called Palestine for centuries (from at least Roman times and the name has been around longer, the Ancient Greeks used it for the area too).

Palestinians are indigenous to the area and in fact are descended from the same population as the returning Jews.

Where are the defenders of Israel when this sort of spurious, racist nonsense is posted? Oh that's right, they let it slide.

Wonder why?

Aladdinzane · 07/06/2024 12:14

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DownNative · 07/06/2024 08:36

LordPercyPercy · 07/06/2024 07:48

This thread is a fucking binfire now.

Yes, especially with the sneaking regardism towards terrorists by trying to use "Saint" Mandela to try claiming terrorism is a matter of opinion. Most of these posters have never had to deal with terrorism and divided societies in real life!

Then there's the antisemitism and comparisons to the Nazis which is, quite frankly, offensive and ridiculous.

We've also now established that the vast majority of young people in the UK are NOT taught about conflict in the Middle East and aren't well informed. That also meant some tried to take the entire thread to the battleground of history as well as stereotypes whilst displaying their ignorance over what IHL actually says.

I always say the point isn't to change the minds of those who post. That's futile.

Marblessolveeverything · 07/06/2024 08:24

The question doesn't allow space to capture what a lot of people are identifying as a solution. I think a snapshot of a what to me is not a clear or helpful question is harmful and can be utilised to fit a malicious brief.

Ideally a clearer first question followed up with further questions to capture a more accurate reflection of the poll, would be preferable.

TrickyRibbon · 07/06/2024 08:21

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Yeah, you know when you're so desperate that you just can't help but rape someone? You have no choice but to kill a child?

Do you actually support Hamas?

WineOnTap · 07/06/2024 08:19

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LordPercyPercy · 07/06/2024 07:48

This thread is a fucking binfire now.

MyMumIsBetterThanYours · 07/06/2024 07:47

milkwonder · 07/06/2024 07:39

@79Helene why are you acting like that isn't possible??? Have you forgotten what happened to them after the holocaust??
And yes of course it includes Arab Jews. I'm not the one that is racist towards the colours of Jews, it's not me that dictates which type of Jew is acceptable.
And pls there is a distinction between Jews and Israelis, as can be seen by the many lovely Jews that oppose the apartheid.

Oh ok so as long as they're Jewish, they have no place in the Middle East? Even if they're Arab? But it's Israel you have a problem with, not Jews, right? From what you said, you're not racist towards Jews based on the colour of the skin, just by the religion they were born into because Jews are unacceptable regardless of colour?

And yes, there is a distinction between Jews and Israelis. It's just a shame you haven't figured out what the distinction is yet.

MyMumIsBetterThanYours · 07/06/2024 07:42

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No, they don't just want any land to call home. They want their land to call home. The whole point of Zionism is a home in Zion.

Which Israelis were ousted because no one wanted them? Do you mean Jews? It really doesn't sound like you mean "our fellow Israelis" by your description. And it sounds like you're not overly bothered about no one wanting them. You really don't come across very well at all, to be honest.

Your argument, and I'm being very, very generous referring to it as such, can be equally used the other way around. "the British and Americans and the European countries that created this need to give up land to allow them to build" a Palestinian state. Surely they owe them that much? "That's the least they deserve.".

Hopefully you now realise just how fucked up everything you're saying is. No doubt you'll misconstrue my words and pretend that last paragraph is what I want to happen (it isn't) or think should happen (again, it isn't). I'm just trying to show you how incredibly ridiculous you're being.

noblegiraffe · 07/06/2024 07:41

@milkwonder you seem confused as to whether it is all Israelis you are shipping off to the the US, or merely the Jewish ones.

noblegiraffe · 07/06/2024 07:40

Who would have thought that posters on a female forum would need telling that rape is not resistance and that what happened to Shani Louk wasn't freedom fighting.

milkwonder · 07/06/2024 07:39

@79Helene why are you acting like that isn't possible??? Have you forgotten what happened to them after the holocaust??
And yes of course it includes Arab Jews. I'm not the one that is racist towards the colours of Jews, it's not me that dictates which type of Jew is acceptable.
And pls there is a distinction between Jews and Israelis, as can be seen by the many lovely Jews that oppose the apartheid.

milkwonder · 07/06/2024 07:32

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DownNative · 07/06/2024 06:48

crispychickenwings · 06/06/2024 21:05

@DownNative I assume you would’ve been in support of apartheid South Africa then. What South Africa has proven is that disenfranchised people will rise up when faced with injustice, through violence or other means. It would’ve been nonsense for Mandela to reproach violent organisations, because he’d understand why.

What that person was saying was that the definition of terrorist is entirely subjective, and the West uses it whenever they see fit + whenever it benefits them, when in reality, a lot of their own actions will match their definition of ‘terrorist’ too. E.g in destabilising countries and the establishment of imperial regimes.

You assume wrong!

Mandela himself wasn't simply supporting violence in terms of legitimate resistance, but actively supporting terrorist groups such as the Provisional I.R.A who had no popular support from the people and also always had a democratic route.

In short Mandela was a terrorist. Not a liberator.

If you believe that 'one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter', then you are arguing that something being terrorism is really just a matter of opinion.

One perspective with a claimed equal opposite perspective. This kind of thinking easily gives rise to False Balance aka bothsidesism, False Equivalence, False Dichotomy and so on. These are logical fallacies.

If 'terrorism' is, as you say, really just a matter of opinion, then other opinions are available and just as valid.

So, what is the view of various Sovereign Governments, European Union and courts on Hamas?

Since 2001, the Council of the European Union has adopted a "common position" and a regulation to combat terrorism.

In 2014 after Hamas contested their designation as a terrorist organisation, the EU's General Court found the EU's terrorist designation had been "based not on acts examined and confirmed in decisions of competent authorities but on factual imputations derived from the press and the internet". Furthermore, the General Court asserted that, "The court stresses that those annulments, on fundamental procedural grounds, do not imply any substantive assessment of the question of the classification of Hamas as a terrorist group within the meaning of the common position."

Unsurprisingly, Hamas took this as validation of their own acts of terrorism which they claim was supported under international law as "resistance".

In 2019, the European Court of Justice overturned the ruling of the General Court. The ECJ asserted below:

"The Court of Justice, sitting as the Grand Chamber, sets aside the judgment of the General Court of 4 September 2019. It finds that the General Court erred in law in ruling that the statements of reasons relating to the retention of Hamas on the lists annexed to the acts at issue should – in the same way as the acts themselves, which contain a general statement of reasons – have been signed by the President and the Secretary-General of the Council. In addition, those statements of reasons were adopted by the Council simultaneously with those acts, to which they were inseparably attached, and their authenticity has not been validly challenged."

And:

"...that the Council produced documents demonstrating that the statements of reasons were adopted simultaneously with the acts at issue signed by the President and the Secretary-General of the Council, to which they were inseparably attached, and that Hamas has not put forward any evidence that could call into question the fact that the text of the statements of reasons that were notified to it and the text adopted by the Council correspond perfectly. Since the authenticity of those statements of reasons has not been validly challenged by Hamas, the Court concludes that the action brought by Hamas must be dismissed in its entirety."

So, the European Union was AND remains correct to designate Hamas NOT as a so-called "resistance movement", but as a TERRORIST organisation. Especially since Hamas did NOT argue against the authenticity of the CoE's statements of reason that led to this designation in the first place!

That leads us to the designation of Hamas as a terrorist organisation by, aside from the EU, Sovereign States such as the United States, United Kingdom, Australia, Paraguay, New Zealand, Canada, Argentina and others.

It surprises nobody that Israel designates Hamas as a terrorist organisation as well.

In 2023, "The United States welcomes Germany’s decision to ban activities supporting Hamas" and asserted that "Hamas is a dangerous terrorist organization, which engages in barbaric actions and has compounded and perpetuated the suffering of the Palestinian people at every step of this crisis".

And:

"Authorities in Germany's most populous state, North Rhine-Westphalia, have outlawed a Palestinian organization that promotes Hamas and calls for the eradication of Israel on Thursday".17 May 2024

In the United States, the so-called "charity" Holy Land Foundation For Relief and Development was accused of funding a terrorist organisation - Hamas. On 24th November 2008, their five leaders were convicted of 108 counts. Other so-called charities including Holy Land Foundation (HLF), Islamic Association for Palestine (IAP), and Kind Hearts were also shutdown by United States authorities for funding a terrorist organisation - Hamas.

The "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" slogan implicitly holds (paradoxically) that ‘terrorism’ is inherently bad while ‘freedom fighting’ is good, and that labelling an act freedom fighting precludes it from also being viewed as terrorism. Making it a nonsensical statement, naturally, whilst serving as motivation for terrorist groups to manipulate as many people as possible to believe they're not terrorists.

But it is supporters of terrorist organisations themselves, their fellow travellers and their sneaking regarders who actively attempt to push that flawed cliché. Usually to people who have not had to think very much, if at all, about the problem of terrorism.

Hence, websites have a legal duty and requirement to observe the law. That means passing information on to the relevant authorities, deleting comments and, yes, banning accounts who attempt to push support for terrorist groups, explicitly and/or implicitly, overtly and/or covertly.

It would seem that some advocates of the "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" school of thought have a bit of a problem.

As Randy Borum, Directors of Psychology of Terrorism Initiative said:

"When we abandon the cliché that one person’s terrorist is the other’s freedom fighter, we can better understand (or adopt) Jenkin’s definition that: “One man’s terrorist is everyone’s terrorist”.

Hamas is a terrorist organisation.

By the way, all opinions are NOT equal. Indeed, those opinions suggesting, could be interpreted as support and explicit support for terrorist groups are ILLEGAL under the law.

somewhereovertherain · 07/06/2024 06:28

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MyMumIsBetterThanYours · 07/06/2024 06:10

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Who is "them" exactly?

79Helene · 07/06/2024 00:54

noblegiraffe · 07/06/2024 00:36

Maybe different countries could have them on a rota. That would be even fairer.

Maybe they'll be able to go to the Maldives after all!

noblegiraffe · 07/06/2024 00:36

Maybe different countries could have them on a rota. That would be even fairer.

79Helene · 07/06/2024 00:35

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What, you want the whole Israeli population of 10 million to move to the UK and US? Does that include Arab Israelis? Or just Jews?

milkwonder · 07/06/2024 00:29

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79Helene · 07/06/2024 00:29

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I'm appalled by what Israel is doing in Gaza but "desperation" is a fucking reach. 7/10 was orchestrated by a bunch of blokes who live the absolute high life in their ivory towers. Who knew fine well where their provocation would lead.

Hamas are a proscribed terrorist organisation in the UK and expressing support for them is illegal, including on Mumsnet.

whatdidyousaaay · 06/06/2024 23:58

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whatdidyousaaay · 06/06/2024 23:56

Im not especially young -34 - but everyone I know thinks this and publicly discusses it and shares posts to this nature on social media and many attend pro-Palestine marches regularly. None were especially political before the genocide. Before the genocide I didn’t think this, now I have learned more, I do.

CanadaNotAMum · 06/06/2024 23:32

Aladdinzane · 06/06/2024 18:06

@CanadaNotAMum you are misrepresenting me, I have at each stage made it clear that pogroms were the major cause of Jewish migration from other Middle Eastern States.

It was you that repeated the "told to leave or chose to leave" thing which is used by Israeli supporters to dismiss the right to return.

I really don't know how this situation can be resolved without the descendants of those forced out during the Nabka being given the right to return as well as some form of compensation for the land seized.

This is why a truth and reconciliation committee would be very useful,

What are you talking about? I haven’t said any of that!
I believe you are the one who is misrepresenting me by being careless with your replies.

noblegiraffe · 06/06/2024 23:28

girljulian · 06/06/2024 23:24

Who said that??

It's the subject of this thread? Young people were polled and a majority said Israel shouldn't exist?

Do you agree with them?

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