To think that this really can't be true about young people's thoughts about Israel?

So was approximately 20% of Catholics.

All that and your argument is severely undermined by your own basic errors!

For example:

"Let’s ask the Irish Protestants whose relatives were murdered by the British in peaceful protests, I already know some of their opinions."

Yes, the British Army did kill some Protestants - mostly members of Loyalist terrorist groups such as UVF, UDA, etc.

But I suspect you meant Catholics of which I actually am one!

See, what you and others like you never grasp or understand is that Catholics were not in favour of PIRA. Indeed, Catholics were more likely to join the British Army and RUC during Operation Banner!

They and their families then became the target of PIRA.

Indeed,I have testimony from various PIRA terrorists that shows they deliberately engineered confrontations with the Army in order to create conflict, especially Catholic deaths.

That's why the Catholic leader of the SDLP John Hume said that PIRA was responsible for the terror inflicted on ALL parts of the community, including Catholics and Protestants.

Hume blamed PIRA for the security arrangements, internment, raiding of homes and even destruction of jobs on PIRA.

The vast majority of Catholics agreed with him and voted for his party!

It sounds like you've been reading PIRA propaganda too. PIRA admitted they wanted to make life hard for Catholics, you know. 🤦‍♂️

Now...why did you once AGAIN try to speak on matters of which you admitted to be ignorant about?!

Jesus wept!

Let’s ask the Irish Protestants whose relatives were murdered by the British in peaceful protests

I think you mean Catholics. The Protestants were pro British.

@DownNative Wow! What an amazing batch of proposals in the Camp David Accords! In which the Palestinians can rule the West Bank and Gaza (that Israel was already wrongly administering), yet can have none of the land Israel currently occupies in their region! What amazing concessions by Israel! That is why Arafat rejected it.

The quote in your source states, “But do they punish us for this mistake for 64 years?” Good job overlooking the horror Palestinians go through daily.

@DownNative Regarding the 1947 partition plan, Palestinian leaders didn’t attend talks because they didn’t want people in their own land. Therefore decisions on a region were made without its own spokespersons there, which is frankly ludicrous to me. The Palestinians didn’t ‘reject’ anything. They did not attend talks.

Palestinians support Hamas because of the brutal subjugation Israel forces them through. Keep on ignoring that.

You’re so knowledgeable in terrorism, security and counter-terrorism you can’t even open a link to see it was dated in September 2023.

Good on you and your family. Your opinion of terrorism is not the be-all and end-all. Let’s ask the Irish Protestants whose relatives were murdered by the British in peaceful protests, I already know some of their opinions.

I already told you that the ‘various courts’ are Western courts who would not condemn their own states! ‘Mere opinion’. What is the objective definition of terrorism. I bet I can apply it to the US, UK and Israel.

@DownNative Let me do this in parts.
The Hebron massacre was in response to Zionism, and the potential destruction and replacement of the Al-Asqa mosque. I am not condoning it, but don’t act like it came from nowhere. Furthermore you are lying, Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews lived in Hebron. Ashkenazi Jews in Hebron were Zionists who had migrated and wanted to live away from the indigenous Palestinian population.

“On that fateful day in August 1929, Arab-Palestinians in Jerusalem were incited to violence by rumours that Jews were planning to appropriate what is known to Muslims as the Noble Sanctuary of Al-Aqsa and destroy the mosques there. The late Israeli historian Haim Gerber pointed out that in numerous documents written by Zionist leaders in the late 1920s they expressed the will to demolish the buildings on the “Temple Mount” to make space for a new Jewish Temple.”
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20210819-the-massacre-of-jews-in-1929-hebron-is-a-microcosm-of-the-conflict/amp/

“So, when the proposal [The Palestinian party’s acceptance of Jewish settlers’ equal representation in the future bodies of the state] was accepted by the Palestinian party, it was rejected by the Zionists. This led to the riots of 1929, which included the massacre of Jews in Hebron and a much higher death toll among the Palestinian community [the riots, not the massacre]. But there were also other reasons for the wave of violence, the most serious since the beginning of the Mandate. It was triggered by the dispossession of Palestinian tenants from land owned by absentee landlords and local notables, which had been bought by the Jewish National Fund.” - Ten Myths about Israel, Ilan Pappe

Jewish youths also provoked indigenous Palestinians when they marched to the Western Wall, shouting, “the [Wailing] Wall is ours”, waving the Zionist flag and singing the Zionist national anthem.
References:
The Politics of Status Anxieties and Unequal
Rights in Interwar Colonial Algeria: Jewish-Muslim Conflicts and the 1934 Constantine
"Pogrom". Sophie B. Roberts, 2018
The Wailing Wall Disturbances in Nationalism and the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount. Erik Freas, 2017

Arguably, the ‘turning point’ was Herzl’s idea of secular Zionism. Another ‘turning point’ can be the first Aliyah between 1881 - 1903, which was a result of Zionism growing in popularity, and led to more Zionists entering Palestine. A final ‘turning point’ in Middle East relations can be the Balfour Declaration in 1917, in which Lord Balfour had it in writing for a formation of a Jewish state in Palestine, “it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine”.

One more attachment.

"I struggle to see how you can’t understand why a population that has been violently subjugated for 76 years would turn to a violent party to achieve their goals when the peaceful parties were being destabilised and ignored."

The turning point in the history in the Middle East was the year 1929, in particular the Hebron Massacre. That was Arabs murdering Jewish people based on nothing more than rumour at the time. The Jews murdered in Hebron were Sephardi Jews who didn't support Zionism. But that made no difference to the Arabs who murdered them.

That year was the turning point because "Across Palestine the events of 1929 led to increased physical separation between Jewish and Arab communities. After 1929, Jews who had not been Zionists increasingly looked to the Zionist leadership in Palestine for protection. Increased separation strengthened support for Zionist ideology and leadership and made for a more unified Jewish community."

And:

"The events of 1929 did not only act as a stimulus to the development of the Yishuv; they also had a major impact on the development of Palestinian nationalism....Anti-British and anti-Zionist agitation became more and more militant, with some calling for armed resistance."

Source: "Palestinians And Israelis" by Michael Scott-Bauman

So, it's not accurate to suggest Palestinians were always the oppressed or underdog in the conflict!

The irony is their actions in 1929 not only sped up, but made partition of Palestine increasingly inevitable. This would lead to both Jewish and Arab-Palestinian peoples smuggling in weapons to the British Mandate of Palestine. The first armed insurrection was conducted by Izz ad-Din al-Qassam in November 1935. He later became a kind of hero for the PLO in the 1960s so a terrorist.

History tells us Arab leaders rejected all the British proposals as well as the 1947 UN Partition Plan. Indeed, every single deal ever tabled since. In 2011, Mahmoud Abbas admitted that Arabs were WRONG to reject the UN Partition Plan!

And you blatantly ignored the periods of time in the last 76 years when Egypt ruled Gaza and Jordan ruled West Bank! 🤦‍♂️

Problem is, if you keep on rejecting every deal ever tabled you end up leaving yourself with one option - violence/terrorism. US President Bill Clinton said he got Yasser Arafat 97% of PLO demands, but Arafat still rejected it. Exploding in anger, Clinton told him he was "leading your people and the region to catastrophe".

Saudi Crown Prince Mohammad Bin Salman in 2018 told the Palestinians they have to accept a deal or shut up.

Hamas knew that Israel was succeeding with normalisation of relations with Arab States such as Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia with US help. They started war on 7th October 2023 to deliberately destroy the peace process!

You see, Palestinians have been failed by their own leaders for 70 odd years and those leaders have deliberately led their people up the one way garden path to an end result in which their monuments is dead bodies and Palestinians in prison.

"While I disagree with what Hamas did, you can’t be confused as to why some Palestinians would support it?"

Some!?

Let's not downplay it as over 70% of Palestinians support Hamas' actions on 7th October 2023.

And they are wrong to do so.

The MINORITY Palestinians who do not support Hamas are absolutely in the right, especially since they can see that Hamas' actions only hurt Palestinians and their own cause.

I assure you I'm not confused one whit.

"Israel broke the ceasefire too..."

Incorrect. Hamas broke the ceasefire that had been in place since Summer 2023 on 7th October 2023.

Israel retaliating to that does NOT mean they broke the ceasefire! 🤦‍♂️

"Quite telling how you say I should ‘leave it to the experts’ when you yourself are making judgements too."

That's not what I actually said. However, I and my family DO have real life experience of terrorist organisations, how they work, what they do, how they think, etc. It's how we stayed alive whilst going in and out of "their" areas.

I advised you to listen and learn from people who know what they're talking about. No mention of experts of whom I read a fair amount in the field of terrorism, security and counter-terrorism.

"Of course other opinions are valid, what I’m saying is that just because Western institutions do not declare their own countries and allies as terrorists does not mean their actions cannot be classed as terrorism. "

My point is your argument is based on mere opinion and nothing else. You certainly don't have indepth knowledge of terrorism, security and counter-terrorism.

So, I easily dealt with it by turning your opinion back onto you and added detail such as the view of Sovereign States, EU Court, various courts and other instruments of law. Whataboutery is another one.

Finally, all opinions are NOT equal. That's why posts that can be interpreted as support for terrorist groups or explicitly expressing support for them are deleted by Mumsnet in accordance with the law. People who make such posts also run the risk of attracting attention from the authorities. It does happen.

@MyMumIsBetterThanYours Continue ignoring my sources that prove Israel was destabilising peaceful parties and outright dismissing them.

There is no proof of anything from Judaism, Islam Christianity or any other religion, apart from dubious holy books. Yes they existed, but is there proof of what they claim? No.
The Canaanites moved to the Levant, they didn’t originate there, so if we want to be very historically accurate we would say since idols have been found in the region, polytheistic religions have claim to Israel/Palestine and no one else. Or if that form of polytheism no longer exists, a group of people can just convert to it and move there! Similar to the Right of Return!

And if we want to follow religious texts (that have no basis in reality), it in fact says the Israelites moved there from Egypt and brutally slaughtered tribes that were living there first. So I suppose descendants of those tribes get a piece of Israel/Palestine since a holy book establishes so.

@DownNative Hmm nobody can take me seriously but I added sources so read them if you can be bothered.
I struggle to see how you can’t understand why a population that has been violently subjugated for 76 years would turn to a violent party to achieve their goals when the peaceful parties were being destabilised and ignored. While I disagree with what Hamas did, you can’t be confused as to why some Palestinians would support it?
Israel broke the ceasefire too, as well as continued their human rights abuses of Palestinians but I suppose you don’t care about that. Quite telling how you say I should ‘leave it to the experts’ when you yourself are making judgements too.
Of course other opinions are valid, what I’m saying is that just because Western institutions do not declare their own countries and allies as terrorists does not mean their actions cannot be classed as terrorism. How did you ‘easily deal’ with it? You didn’t even respond to that section of my post, and had nothing to say on the US’ Act to invade The Hague if they try to take them to court. It’s ok to criticise the West, I promise!

So you think Palestinians purposely voted in genocidal terrorists because they wanted them to eradicate Israel by terrorism?

States/countries etc weren't a thing back then.

So because you don't think people should have ownership of a land due to religion that means it shouldn't be like that? Right.

The idea that there's "very very little evidence" for Israel historically being Jewish is a joke, right? Like, you've heard of the temples? I know there's a massive mosque on top of them, but I hope we can all agree the Jewish temples were there first.

Stop denying facts just because you want to be rid of Israel. It's not ok.

@MyMumIsBetterThanYours You’re obfuscating again. Yes, Hamas won by 44.45% but Fatah won by 41.43%, so that shows ‘huge support’ for both parties. How on Earth would Hamas have been as popular if Netanyahu hadn’t bolstered them? Stop being obtuse. Once again, the Israeli vote was a plurality vote. Since it was done in 2022, not 18 years ago, I don’t blame many people for believing Israel is still far-right.
I don’t think they were naïve…if peace talks were going nowhere due to the Israeli government, then some Palestinians would likely resort to other means.

As Aladdinzane said, Israel was made out of tribal kingdoms which were ruled by higher authorities. There is no evidence there was ever a state in that region. I don’t believe people should have ownership of a land due to religion. Religious connections are very tenuous, as there is very very little evidence for any of them.

Yeah it would help though wouldn’t it if they don’t hide their terrorists underneath civilian homes, amongst schools, use the children as human shields, indoctrinate all of the people and children into haters and terrorists etc etc?? I mean they found dead hostages inside UN school buildings? Oh and if you stop listening to the nonsense numbers that Hamas ministry of misinformation pump out. puppets.

yeah, you keep saying all that to yourself then love. 💛💛💛

@MyrrAgain interesting you talk of children.
Yes they definitely should release them. And Israel should also stop killing THOUSANDS of children.

What a disgrace that they, alongside Hamas have been added to a list of countries and organisations that actively harm children in war zones.

Release the hostages. what’s left of them anyway. you know, those children included?? please feel free to go over to Gaza and help out if you feel so strongly?

The impressionables of the world will make helpful puppets for the terrorists’ future and survival. Good luck with how the world sits in 50 years time with attitudes like this. 💛💛💛💛💛💛💛💛

what a moronic thing to say. Clearly you know nothing of the 5000 years plus of Jewish history then 🤣🤡💛

@MyMumIsBetterThanYours I’m not Jewish but I’m completely staggered by the poor grasp of history of the region which many pro - Palestinian supporters have. I can’t imagine actively supporting a cause, particularly a contentious one, until I really understand it.

Not that any of this is particularly relevant, but it was called Israel before it was ever called Palestine. Please don't only use history if it benefits your narrative. History doesn't start whenever Palestine was first mentioned.

Jews and Palestinians all have legitimate links to the land. Stop trying to deny it, it's not ok. The whole Jewish religion is based in the region. We pray towards Jerusalem. It's our holiest site. It's ridiculous how many people are still adamant that Jews don't belong there.

Hmm, nobody really takes you seriously after your last few posts now.

As for the 2006 elections, that's a moot point now polls consistently establish the sad reality that Palestinians in Gaza AND West Bank overwhelmingly support Hamas.

And what they did on 7th October 2023. Indeed, they don't think Hamas did anything wrong even though two-thirds of them didn't agree with Hamas breaking the ceasefire pre-7/10/2023.

It speaks volumes.

And still you argue that terrorism is just an opinion which I easily dealt with previously. Other opinions are available and just as valid, in fact more valid!

It's clear terrorism is not a subject you are familiar with in detail. 🤷‍♂️

44.45% is not exactly an insignificant amount of votes. It is huge support. I think the Palestinians at the time were naive to Hamas true intent and thought "anything is better than Fatah" rather than actually wanting to be represented by terrorists who had been sending out men, women and children as suicide bombers only a few years earlier. Specially when Hamas then shortly after started murdering and torturing Palestinians who disagreed with them.

It's interesting that you blame Netanyahu more for Hamas being voted in than you do Palestinians. And when I say interesting, I really mean "quite telling".

Anyway, arguing Hamas didn't win a majority and therefore didn't represent all Palestinians when going on about hating all of Israel for electing Netanyahu when 23% voted for him... Surely even you can see the absolute hypocrisy and insanity in that.

https://archive.ph/lcKOK
Another source stating the percentage of votes that were won

@DownNative I think I can talk about it because what is happening to Palestinians is horrific and we should all speak out. I’ve researched on the history of the region, and in actual fact the PLO was the leading party in negotiations but it got destabilised and Hamas was propped up by Israel. Before this gets deleted for blasphemy, here are some links from reputable news sources:
https://archive.ph/phckk
https://archive.ph/14c3N
https://archive.ph/UPmEj
A quote from one of the articles: “Most incriminatingly, Netanyahu himself said in 2019 at a Likud party conference: “Anyone who wants to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state needs to support strengthening Hamas.”

Yes, Hamas was elected but they also won by a plurality vote, not a majority, so it’s not like they had huge support from Palestinians
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006Palestinianlegislative_election

And in actual fact, they didn’t allow another election again, likely as they knew they’d lose. Plus, as it was taken in 2006, since half of Gaza is children, they didn’t even vote! So I don’t quite like it when people say ‘Hamas was elected by Palestinians’.

I didn’t know much about Ireland apart from the little I’ve heard and what my Irish friends have told me.
I want to clarify that I absolutely believe Hamas are terrorists, but I retain the belief that using the West’s version of terrorism implicates them as well.

@Greenotgrey Yes, I didn’t bring it up first, but I did speak on what I’m not knowledgeable about and for that I apologised