Friends child and gender change!

I will ask the question again. If a friend of your child had a trans sibling, would you ban the friendship?

Would you school your child to not use the preferred name of a trans kid? Would you instruct the school to make sure your child never sat with the trans kid?

Slight difference - there is no legal recognition of a ‘trans child’ - they would be a gender dysphoric child and should be treated with compassion, but children are no longer required to play along with whatever fantasy the child/their parents/therapists have constructed for them.

Guidance on managing this issue and these children has been issued by the govt, reinforced by the findings of the Cass Report, and GC beliefs are now proven to be protected in law. If the children then, organically make friends with a child with GD, if they chose to show them compassion, that is their choice - but they are not being forced to by their parent or parent’s friend.

"hey kids, just wanted to give you a heads up that X is now known as Y. They're having a hard time with things at the moment, so their mum has asked we avoid talking about the past. Is that OK?"
"Sure Mum, no problem"

That's how the conversation would go with my teens. It really would cause them no harm, concern or stress what so ever

Will you remove your child from their school if there is a trans child in their class? What about hobbies your child might have? What if they have a friend with a trans sibling? Will you police who your child can be friends with?

I actually would not be taking my child to this visit/outing.

I refuse to gaslight my own child and pretend that the other kid isn't the sex they are let alone tell my DD to do that.

This is absolute BS.

I would call child by their new name and gender even if talking about the past (and even though i don't believe they have switched gender). But i wouldn't ban the kids from talking about past events. Tbh it will probably make the trans child feel more awkward if you are shutting down conversations for that reason.

Seems easy enough to have an activity that is everyone's focus to talk about instead. Also just talking about what you've been doing lately, what you have coming up in future etc. Pop culture things they're into. Pretty normal stuff.

Not over dramatic at all - I’ve been living with this for 7 years. It is impossible when seeing someone again after a long period for conversation not to organically reference past shared experiences - those are, in fact, what the OPs friendship is based upon. This will be harder for children. Expunge those memories - and what is left of the friendship?

That's exactly what's being asked. They're being asked to refer to the child as the sex they know they aren't and not reference their past experiences with them.

It's also a huge safeguarding red flag, honestly, if something as vast as 'the past' is being implied as being damaging to the child. What about emotional resilience? How is the child supposed to cope with that? How about, it's no big deal if it's mentioned? There is no way on earth every person this child interacts with will do this. The only way to achieve this would be to limit social contact to zero.

That's all a bit over dramatic. No-one's asking the children to lie, or suspend their memories. Just talk about something else!!

I think this is the right approach. And you warn your friend that you won't go out of your way to talk about the past but you cannot guarantee that something about the past won't come up in the natural flow of conversation and you are not going to police your children's speech as this would be impossible and cruel.

It's really controlling to try and get you to modify normal human behaviour because that is what's being asked for. It's actually quite difficult not to ever discuss or touch on such a vast topic as your and your children's past. What if a child says 'oh remember when the seagull stole your ice cream' or something, in passing as part of another conversation. You can't expect children to restrict their speech as she is suggesting.

But no I wouldn't go along with the notion that the child's body is the source of all unhappiness. I wouldn't perpetuate the fallacy that people who don't believe in gender id wish harm on those who do. Faced with a suicidal child that would be deeply irresponsible. It offers them no way out because their body will never be the opposite sex and you can never control the thoughts and speech of everyone.

This is a very important point

What a bizarre situation. I absolutely wouldn't be telling my children what they can and can't discuss. You can't erase the past and you certainly can't change a sex or the gender you are born into.

Exactly this. This family are asking your children to deny the reality of their own experiences with this child. That's not fair, sustainable or conducive to a happy relationship with the world.

It is also not in the child's long term interests as the Cass report makes clear.

I would be concerned about this mother and her affirmative stance, in the light of the most recent medical advice. Has she read the Cass report do you know?

It’s the same thing?

But they’re not being asked not to talk about a specific topic (eg global warming, or the passing of a grandparent, or failing exams) - they are being asked to suspend all shared memories of years of interactions and not refer to any part of them. They are asking OP and her children to sensor themselves and collude in a false narrative of their shared past.

This is potentially damaging to the children and to the parent/child relationship because if they collude in this, what does it mean about honesty - in general or within their relationships - or about how much OP’s children are valued (clearly not as much as the friend’s child). It’s telling the children that lying is ok, that subordinating their needs below others is good, that ‘respect’ is one-sided and that friendship is about control. It’s an appalling thing for the friend to ask. They should meet without the kids/teens.

This.

Without commenting on the obvious, just maybe talk about future plans?

It's all v well saying all this hard line stuff on line here but really - you'd not accept your own child if they opened up to you about this? You'd stand by armed with your reports as your kid was self harming or attempting suicide due to unhappiness over gender?

I don't doubt it puts the parents in a very difficult position. Of course you have to tread carefully to maintain relationship.

But no I wouldn't go along with the notion that the child's body is the source of all unhappiness. I wouldn't perpetuate the fallacy that people who don't believe in gender id wish harm on those who do. Faced with a suicidal child that would be deeply irresponsible. It offers them no way out because their body will never be the opposite sex and you can never control the thoughts and speech of everyone.

I tend to be radical (as in root cause) in my outlook generally in life. All the trans id kids I've come across so far have been gay and or autistic and or traumatised teenage girls. It is our society that needs to change - the lesbophobia, the misogyny, the lack of acceptance of difference, the abuse - not the bodies of troubled teens.

If the child gets upset about their past self then they certainly aren't ready to be changing genders they need to be seen by a therapist

Maybe that's true, maybe not. But given you believe this, why would you not ask your children to avoid a topic that upsets another child? It just seems mean not to. Or once again, is this purely about the fact that it's about a change of gender? If they had lost, say, a grandparent, and you were asked to avoid the subject of grandparents for now, surely you wouldn't have a problem with this?

@HereComesEverybody again you are so busy talking about how kind and helpful you are that you haven't realised that 'affirming' vulnerable kids isn't kind or helpful. You seem very behind on the latest medical advice.

You can be supportive and helpful to your friends and their kids without pushing them onto a path to transition. We've done it in my own family and the young people have happily desisted.

You might also want to consider that your repeated focus on suicide is misplaced and alarmist. The latest Finnish study has made it clear that kids who are confused about their gender are no more likely to feel suicidal than any other young people with the same co morbidities.

You might find this recent article in the BMJ interesting: Medical institutions must treat the Cass review as a significant event and act upon it | The BMJ

What a bizarre situation. I absolutely wouldn't be telling my children what they can and can't discuss. You can't erase the past and you certainly can't change a sex or the gender you are born into.

If you wish to change your previous name to a male or female name feel free. But I certainly wouldn't be policing what my children talk about. If the child gets upset about their past self then they certainly aren't ready to be changing genders they need to be seen by a therapist.

Conversation with friends is natural and organic.

Absolutely we can say in the moment "actually don't go there" or a sensitive friend might pick up my body language and not need it saying.

These are some contentious issues affecting people in my life: bereavement, still birth, infertility, infidelity, depression, mania, psychosis, child abuse, drugs, alcohol, cancer, degenerative illness, fraud, unemployment, gay parenting, suicidal ideation, religion, rape, trauma, disability.

Nobody has ever needed to issue a statement prior to meeting up that we may not discuss a certain topic or timeframe.

My children learn to be compassionate to others from experiencing my compassion towards them. I want them to learn to hear "actually don't go there" and learn to detect social cues and body language.

Saying "never speak of anything before gender identity" is purely about control and the dangerous fallacy that not sharing beliefs = hatred. It prevents natural mutual interactions, genuine compassion, reading social cues etc and ultimately will isolate the child in question from genuine friendships. #bekind it ain't.

Most teens I know are GC but are used to trying to use others preferred pronouns and avoiding certain topics to save getting into it. They see kids who have fallen for this ideology as victims, so yes, they’d be empathetic to what they see as a mental health issue.

As to what I’d do about the visit, I’d try to stay off the issue, but no doubt you may end up using the correct sex based pronoun, mentioning something that you ‘shouldn’t’ or using the child’s previous name that you’ve known them by their whole life. It would be easily done. Do you really want to feel on edge by doing something ‘wrong’?

I think if my friend was fully believing in gender and believing TWAW and TWAM, I’d have to step away from the friendship as I’d see it as harmful to her child and our views would be too different. I don’t want to spend my time avoiding shared history and having to change correct sex based pronouns. I think my kids would want to give the visit a miss.

This. FFS. Why the hell is the mother pandering to this nonsense. Hasn’t she heard of the Cass report? And as for dictating what you can talk about … fuck that.