If state grammar schools were for only state educated children…

I don’t think anything about my original message suggested it was a Labour policy, did it? It’s an ideal world scenario to truly level our education system. Calm your tits, love. No one’s actually going to force your kids to consort with the help.

But Labour aren't suggesting that are they? The only policy so far is to add VAT onto private schools. When questioned Yvette Cooper could not answer how they will accommodate kids leaving private school.

Then a place lottery can be instated, which I believe is the system in Brighton. There are ways to soften those sharp elbows :)

Nope. As I pointed out I got top grades. But I could have done better. I wasted years at school learning almost nothing and I was at a great comprehensive school.

Nobody would look at my grades and results and say "oh that school failed." On the contrary. There is not a metric that records this wasted potential but it is very clear to me it is there. It was there for several other students in the class.

The basic problem is that the more broad the range of abilities, the less focussed the lessons can be. They are necessarily broad to catch all. If you have a very small range of abilities you can cater your classes to that range.

Maybe if you have the top 5% in your class you can teach them A levels early? Teach them university courses to give them a headstart. Accelerate them. Let then spend a year doing something more enriching whilst still getting top grades at 18. Who knows. But you won't get the best out of people by spreading the abilities you are teaching to thin and wide.

Top level pupils are left to do essentially nothing. Throw paper. Chat to their friends. Go over the same work over and over and over that they already know and can easily pass the exams for at top levels whilst getting nothing out of it. Schools that don't have to cater to such wide levels can do more like send kids to Olympiads, have them spend time do other things.

Getting top grades when you could have got the same grades in the same exams years earlier without school grinding you down for years doing nothing is not the pinnacle of success.

The standard of teaching should be raised across the board regardless of the type of school with the support of engaging parents

Having taught in both state and independent, I did not magically become a better teacher the day I walked through the independent's front door. The difference is in the culture of success that exists in independents - it's cool to do well. That simple. Teaching doesn't need improving, attitude to learning is the issue.

@elliejjtiny " I was considered "academic" because I was quiet and did my homework so I had to do double science and a humanities subject for gcse. I failed both. The students who were considered non academic were allowed to do more "fun" subjects like child development business studies (which was boring but you got to go on trips to Cadbury world and Disney land paris)."

So you failed your GCSE's but still went to universitities and your peers did boring fun business studies which involved free trips to Disneyland Paris? Sounds a little strange...

@IAmNotASheep Not surprising at all! I hate that private and grammar schooling is painted as elitism when it may be the best environment based on the available options.
A one size fits all approach is terrible for all children. The outcome is a top set at a comprehensive could have A*-C / 9-4 students.
It is a terrible predicament for students and teachers alike.

Your fourth paragraph is exactly why we moved our eldest out of state. My son spent a whole year teaching the kid they put next to him and my sons ability actually dropped.

He was in a one form entry primary. Big mistake!

Apologies to all the courteous Labour voters on here.
You have a couple of bad apples pulling you down!

Except these kids won’t end up in these schools will they.
They’ll move house or buy a second property and live and go to school with Starmers kids and the like.

You don’t seriously think people with money will take this tax crap lying down do you.
The only ones to lose out will be those who lose their places in the good schools that the %%% move to.
Crack on Labour, a party creating ever more divisions and more elitism.

@CakeTastesBetterAsBatter
”They weren't. You can't teach 30 kids with different abilities and teach all the children. You'd need extra teachers or different classes.

I'm pointing out an example of how even very good state schools can't logistically take account of the brightest pupils because of the distribution of abilities across 30 kids in a class. The only way to do this is having schools that don't cater to say the lower ability levels so that the lessons can be more focussed on what the pupils can actually do.

Some places don't stream at all and really leave kids behind. Do you think that's a good policy?”

This is the very reason why we began prepping for the grammar exam. In year 4 DC began explaining that they would complete their group A (top set) work then they would help the child sitting next to them who was in group C. The teacher would spend most of their time helping the children in the lower set, while DC would just sit there and try to occupy themselves. How is such an environment beneficial to both ends of the spectrum. In the end we moved to a primary school that had streamed classes for Maths and English.

Most parents who advocate for the grammar school system have observed the impact streaming has on their own children in primary school or they believe the environment fostered in grammar schools would better suit their child.

I don’t however believe grammar school should be restricted to children from state schools only. The standard of teaching should be raised across the board regardless of the type of school with the support of engaging parents.

Agree@strawberrybubblegum
It’s disgusting and it shows what Labour voters have become!

As is yours, for the schools the overwhelming majority of children in this country need to use. I haven’t suggested a new, inferior type of school for ex private school children, just the schools 94% of children are using right now. Die mad about it, as the kids say :)

This is what I think really. Judging kids on how they perform on one day when they’re 11 seems ridiculous.

Enjoy your little fantasy of 'taxing the ever loving shit out of the wealthiest families', 'rinsing them for every penny' and sending the kids you clearly despise so much to 'sink schools'.

Your contempt is disgusting.

How dreadful, to imagine the middle classes rubbing shoulders with the great unwashed! It’s akin to child cruelty, expecting them to utilise schools that the majority of children have to use!

They'll go where they're told and be grateful for it, @twistyizzy . If they're not happy with the sink schools, then they can go to the gulag. It's all the nasty little private school children deserve!

This kind of bile is almost like a David Walliams caricature of a child-hating villain. How depressing that someone this spiteful has any kind of power over children's futures, working in school appeals.

Grammar schools are state schools and as such all pupils have the right to attend. Closing grammars or private schools will not improve social mobility as much as people hope. Whether you like it or not, right now state schools are not equal. To close the gap there needs to be changes made to the curriculum, some parents need to show greater responsibility, SEN provision needs to be looked at and everything needs to be funded at the appropriate levels.

Yep, we live in Bucks, our oldest is in year 3. We were looking for a tutor for next year, nearly all the ones I contacted said 'no spaces' I was surprised, but apparently the best tutors need to be booked by start of year 3 due to so many people wanting it.
We are in area for Beaconsfield High, so there is a huge amount of pressure to get in there as one of the top schools in the country (apparently). Oldest was in reception when we moved from London to Bucks, grammar schools seemed so far off it didn't even enter our thoughts.

I don't think they should bias towards a certain demographic, bit I do think that somehow there should be more equal access to tutoring, to level the playing field. Not sure how this would work though in practice

Maybe before we go any further, we should define our terms? There appears to be confusion happening. Grammar schools are state schools. Comprehensive schools do not routinely teach mixed ability classes. The school that the majority of kids in grammar areas go to is not a comprehensive. Setting and streaming are not the same thing. Kids in comprehensive schools get good grades.

@CakeTastesBetterAsBatter "States schools cater to the middle."

Simplistic question, I know-but are you suggesting state school kids don't get top grades?

@CurlewKate I still went to Cambridge to study hard sciences and they would consider that the marker of their absolute success. There no metric that wouldn't have marked me as being a sign of how great they were.

They weren't. You can't teach 30 kids with different abilities and teach all the children. You'd need extra teachers or different classes.

I'm pointing out an example of how even very good state schools can't logistically take account of the brightest pupils because of the distribution of abilities across 30 kids in a class. The only way to do this is having schools that don't cater to say the lower ability levels so that the lessons can be more focussed on what the pupils can actually do.

Some places don't stream at all and really leave kids behind. Do you think that's a good policy?

I'm advocating for more streaming being beneficial.

I went to an excellent grammar school. It took 60 kids a year from the town (higher social deprivation, mainly working class and lower middle class), 30 from outside (wealthier prep school kids).

When I was about halfway through they opened the boundaries, the working class and lower middle class kids were squeezed out, car park suddenly filled with range rovers. Lots of my peer’s siblings didn’t get in.

so I get that people pay tax and should have a choice to go for an excellent free state school, but it felt pretty shitty when people buy those places with years of prep school and tutoring that others couldn’t afford.

Grammar schools are state schools.

Plenty of state schools stretch the more able kids.

Maybe your ‘best in the county’ wasn’t one of them.