If state grammar schools were for only state educated children…

Other opinions are available.

Yes.
But you must see that this is idealistic and not realistic.

It will never be a level playing field for all children, as wealthier parents would still be able to pay for tutors etc.

Bad schools don’t get better with brighter children, you just move kids down stream.

But surely comprehensives are still selective since the children are in streams, just all on one campus instead of separate ones?

I would prefer to just get rid of grammar schools altogether, personally.

It will never be a level playing field for all children, as wealthier parents would still be able to pay for tutors etc.

I would make all state schools comprehensive. I would get rid of state-funded faith schools as well.

I went to our local Grammar and I was the only child in my class on FSM in an area where 1/3 of all pupils qualify. It was almost exclusively middle-class kids who had been tutored through the 11+. I didn’t know anyone who’d attended a private primary, they were all from local state primaries. What really struck me was the amount of pupils that really struggled. I had friends who had “failed” the 11+ who were hands down more academic than many of the tutored kids who passed. It’s a grossly unfair system.

Yes, sure they tried to do something about a barrier to socioeconomic mobility. But what actually happened when they did it was that overall, education started on its path deep down the shitter.

I think grammars/selective schools should be consigned to the past. Others have mentioned this but properly funded comprehensives with appropriate support for kids of all abilities within them.

Labour abolished it [grammar system], probably the biggest blow to education ever struck in this country in the 60s.

You mean Labour considered the evidence that the grammar system was a barrier to socioeconomic mobility and did (or at least tried to do) something about it?

I feel like whatever we did somebody would be complaining.

If we did the vocational skills secondary thing, the government would be accused of limiting working class children and funnelling them off into less academic routes so their own middle class DC don’t have extra competition or whatever

We had it and labour destroyed it in the 60s.

grammar/secondary modern system

so long dead that people don’t remember it.

Children are already ranked based on their birth month though aren't they? Even though the August born children will be in the same classes as the September born children. I don't see how it would hurt to similarly adjust scores by comparing private school children to other private school children?

Even that won’t be enough. How will you stop the house price rises in the tight catchments of fabulous state schools? some are already private by house price.

We used to have the grammar/secondary modern system. It worked well. Once in it, a move was possible. One of my parents moved secondary modern to grammar. Labour abolished it, probably the biggest blow to education ever struck in this country in the 60s. It was when the rot set in.

in the 90s, labour struck another blow to poor kids who had free places in private - abolished assisted places. My dh was an assisted place kid.

private schools are sort of a grammar replacement in many areas - so now labour are bashing these as well.

seems whatever education system we have, labour try to rip the top down, rather than pulling the bottom up.

and the irony is that Starmer was at a grammar that turned private. He’s been educated in both the sectors that labour either destroyed or want to destroy.

YANBU it totally defeats the point of grammars. I went to one and at least half the kids either came from private or could’ve easily afforded it. It’s sort of unenforceable though

My Son (always bright and good at Maths) failed the 11 plus.He went to our local all boys Secondary.He passed all his GCSEs and A levels .Now has a Masters in on Physics from a RG uni! As his teacher said at the time ,its just how they perform on the day! Not an indication of future ability.One of his friends who went to the same school is now a Doctor,another on FSM a teacher !

Any school which receives state funding should be available to everyone. I cant believe we still have selective grammar schools and faith schools when in many areas the most deprived children only have the option of a failing high school.

I think parents would just tutor if they couldn’t use the private prep school - so it wouldn’t make much difference in terms of social mobility. Even if tutoring was banned/taxed, parents could help kids themselves. There is no way of removing the leg up that having an educated, involved, nurturing and dedicated parent gets you. My ds knows 2 kids with Oxbridge places. #1 - both parents have a degree in the subject, #2 - one parent has a degree in the subject and the other teachers the subject as well.

Besides, I am not sure we should be removing/disincentivising people doing well - very regressive. Yes to more opportunities to those at the bottom, but no to ripping destroying people at the top.

labour abolished the grammar/secondary modern system in the 60s. I don’t understand why any grammars are still about. I don’t live in a grammar area so know nothing about them.

for the person saying this is a small % of kids moving private - grammar, well yes it is, but they’ll be concentrated in particular areas so it makes a difference presumably in those places.

really though, if labour are true to their principles, they should immediately stop all grammars, faith schools and privates. And they should randomise admissions to leafy state schools so that you can’t house price your way in. But this would piss off too many people. And the bottom line is votes.

I dont live in a grammar school area and they seem absurd to me to be honest.

But I dont think it would help social mobility to ban private school pupils transferring. I think parents would pay for tutoring and prepare their chikdren in other ways.

Here's some information on the German system (note there's the option for 'late bloomer' academic kids to move from a vocational school to an academic one at a later stage

(The one failing with the German system is perhaps it's SEN provision. Although it depends on what people consider is best for them. Germany has specific schools for children with SEN. That might be seen as good, if they're better tailored to cater for needs. The downside though is, as the link says, disabled children are less integrated.)

https://www.simplegermany.com/german-school-system/

Grammar schools create an unfair advantage themselves. They cream off the most academic students and are full of kids from well-to-do families who can spend ££££ on private tutors from year 2 and houses in grammar school areas. But it's been at least 1 day since the last private school bashing thread so why not start another one!

I think grammar schools should be means tested.
It has become a free private school experience so rich parents feel morally and socially better about the fact they "aren't privileged" when they clearly are just saving a fortune at the tax payer's expense to spend on increased luxury.

As it is your kid is penalised for SEN, even mild dyslexia, from these places. It is not therefore a level playing field for social mobility in the slightest. Far fewer FSM in the grammars here than get full bursaries at the indies.

That's going to chime really well with the VAT issue haha

I take issue with the suggestion that being academically able is 'the best'. That's imo one of the reasons why, in the UK but not Germany, the grammar system went wrong and why it was largely abandoned. Germany recognises vocational abilities and education are just as important and valuable as academic ability and education. It's not a failure to be less academic.

Why not both?