MIL thinks having c-section isn’t “giving birth”

I gave birth to both of mine vaginally. However after minor abdominal surgery I feel that mums who had caesarean sections can absolutely call it what they like. That shit must have really hurt!

I've had c-sections and I don't think of it as giving birth as such, more as surgery, but each to their own really, it's just different ways of wording something, as long as no offence was intended.

Although I did once see a section referred to as an abdominal birth and I thought that was a bit ridiculous!

Yes, same as me. If someone actually said to me "but you didn't give birth though" I would say "what does it matter, I had a baby - same result".

I do think we're all a little bit guilty of over-emphasising the whole birth thing, when actually the next 18 years are what really counts in the parenting of a child.

There wasn't much passive about the 40 hours of contractions and 2 hours of futile attempts to push DS1 and his big knobbly back-to-back head out. After 2 births, the only bit I can't describe is crowning, but given that I felt like I was on fire from ribs to knees before the spinal block relieved me from pain for the first time in months (thanks SPD) I don't think I was missing out on much. DS1 might have been a late EMCS after all that hard work, but I still had stiches in my undercarriage from force of pushing and apparently not the ventouse. I think emerging from all of that with a baby (via HDU and NICU) is more than acceptable grounds to state that I gave birth to him.

DS2 was a "sucessful VBAC" but again born in a mad panic in an operating theatre. This time pushing with all my might and the surgeon's tugging with the forceps did pay off and he didn't have to use them to shove DS2 back up for a complex CS. I couldn't sit on a firm surface for at least a month. It wasn't any more "natural" and the only advantages were that my body happened to do it quicker so I was less exhausted. Both recoveries were long and difficult but in different ways. While DS2 used the main exit, there was no further physical experience of birth gained following DS1's EMCS. Both times I didn't feel the actual eviction stage because of the spinal blocks.

Birth is often emotive because there's often a lot of trauma attached, often but not exclusively from emergency situations. There's layers of control, consent, expectation, diginity, fear and pain wrapped up in it. It's not just physical health that matters in outcomes, it's mental too. Physical health of mothers is often minimised too. It's not that surprising that many women emerge with trauma when birth is presented as something "natural" and routine and it all spirals off on its own chaotic course.

I don't have an issue with people personally feeling like they haven't had an experience of giving birth when it's via CS, but I would have issue with someone telling me that I haven't because it's an act of minimising the process and lengthy recovery that my body went through, and neither the EMCS nor the VBAC were smooth or quick processes to go through or recover from.

I don't know why some women get competitive about parts of pregnancy/ birth/ parenting that are uncontrollable. I had a couple of people get funny with me about the debilitating effects of SPD too. Yes, pregnancy can do a fucking good impression of illness, and it's not about a lack of moral fortitude. Apply as necessary to feeding babies etc.

Tell her to fuck off from me. I've heard how difficult c sections are. I know someone who got her scar infected and it was brutal.

If a vaginal birth is natural (good) then anything else must be ‘bad’ - this is buried deep in societies minds.

I take your point but I don't feel it was bad as such. But lying on a bed while someone removes your baby requires no effort compared to pushing it out of the other exit (I've heard enough horror stories to appreciate what my friends went through). There was some recovery (and I had a spinal leak so needed a blood patch which was not pleasant) but give me that over an episiotomy or forceps every time.

I'm pretty relaxed about it so if I got any abuse (light hearted or otherwise), I'd agree with them that their birth was a lot harder than mine and I got off very lightly. To me, it was a means to an end, I really don't need validation of my birth experience.

How does this even come up as a thing? "MIL, what a strange thing to say out loud."

I, actually ,think that this very common idea that during vaginal delivery the woman is an active participant, has control and can affect the outcome is a large part of the problem. It gives massive guilt when something goes wrong and creates this competitiveness and makes some people into judgy twats. In reality, if you’re going to have a straight forward, easy birth you’re probably going to get it even if you do nothing and if something is seriously wrong there’s very little you can do about it on your own.

For the record, I had a vaginal delivery and, yes, I experienced the pains and was mentally present for the process, but ultimately my body was just along for the ride. The only actual impact I was making was through medical decisions and advocating for myself with the staff but a good birthing partner could have technically done the same.

Its interesting that you see your c- section as requiring no effort ( from you)

Thats why C-Sections are viewed as ‘the easy way out’ ‘too posh to push’ ‘not a natural birth’

Its engrained that unless you suffer, struggle and pant to push your baby out - it’s not a ‘natural birth’ - the media and social media has played a huge part in this.

Natural intrinsically means good
unnatural intrinsically means bad.

If a vaginal birth is natural (good) then anything else must be ‘bad’ - this is buried deep in societies minds.

I work with pregnant women and some have to absolutely fight to get a C-section - even after really traumatic births. This is because it’s cheaper for the NHS. But I genuinely think that every women should be asked how they want to give birth and given what they request. ( but that’s another issue)

I just wish we would leave the ‘natural’ bit out and just move on to vaginal birth or c-section because it could save a lot of women feeling like they failed.

Hmm the term vaginal birth isn't my favourite, I mean we all know it's where they emerge from but the phrase slightly gives me the ick.

I may be in the minority but I don't mind non sections being called normal or natural births because my sections weren't given they required surgical intervention (and no effort from me whatsoever..).

If it’s not ‘natural’ ( vaginal birth) then it must ‘unnatural’ (c-section)

And it really does have negative connotations for a lot of women.

if vaginal birth is natural then c-section would be non-natural, not unnatural. Epidurals, forceps, induction are all non-natural parts of vaginal births. It is what it is.

Most people don't have a natural (completely unaided) birth anyway.

Yes, I’m sure normal is used informally. In the hospital I worked in (medical records, nothing grand), the V in SVD definitely stood for vertex, though people seeing it on a card would assume it stood for vaginal.

If it’s not ‘natural’ ( vaginal birth) then it must ‘unnatural’ (c-section)

And it really does have negative connotations for a lot of women.

A lot of women are left feeling that they failed. Words do really mean a lot here.

I just wish we would leave the ‘natural’ bit out and just move on to vaginal birth or c-section because it could save a lot of women feeling like they failed.

I had an EMCS.

I've never described it as "giving birth".

I didn't give birth imo.

I've since had a laparoscopic vaginal hysterectomy and often joke that where ds was baked and housed came out where he should come out from!

I've honestly got far more things in life to be concerned about than the semantics around child birth.

Oh yes. My DH's ex said when I told her it was a section (of course she already knew) and she said 'oh so not a real birth then'!!!! I said it felt pretty real to me! Cow.

I can understand how a c section is still having/delivering a baby but actual "giving birth" does imply vaginal delivery to me, c section is more passive (I had a c section BTW). I think this is one of those where it's easy to take things personally/the wrong way if they touch a bit of a nerve. Bit like the ff warning on the thread yesterday. 💖

There has been a campaign to use the term “caesarean birth” for exactly this reason.

that’s why the NHS website uses the term “caesarean birth” alongside “caesarean section”.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/caesarean-section/

"Well then mil, I didn't give birth so there's child for you to see, so politely, fuck off!"

She's talking bullshit and I would be telling her so. Of course a c-section is giving birth.

I've had two vaginal births and one c-section. I would still say that I gave birth three times and I couldn't give a single shit what anyone else thinks.

I think she thinks the phrase 'giving birth' refers to the physical activity. It is weird if she cares how a child was born. You should not.

I think it's really unhealthy for people to get caught up in the wording of what it means to give birth. All that matters is that mother and baby are safe and well after delivery (whatever mode of delivery!). There is so much toxicity around birth. I attended an antenatal course that was obsessed with a 'natural' delivery and I remember it almost being a competition after the babies arrived as to who had done it with the least intervention and the least pain relief. I found it weird and toxic. Then of course there is also the toxicity and competition around how everyone is feeding their baby. I lost interest in antenatal meet-ups pretty quickly because of all this. OP, you did what was best to ensure the safety of you and your baby, that is all that matters.

Honestly I was sure I'd picked that up wrong as it was so bizarre. I don't feel like I gave birth to my Cs babies and have totally neutral emotions about it. It's all down to interpretation of the language and for me, it doesn't sit right for me to say it. For others, it might feel fine. Give birth, didn't give birth, who cares! Obviously the MIL in the OP was wrong but being told you DID give birth when you don't feel like you did is also annoying and invalidating.

@Darkdiamond no, you're not missing anything. Others must question and undermine people's own experiences, and force you to agree. We've had misogyny thrown in, as always.

I don't know what people don't get. I feel it can be summed up by:

I gave birth, but I didn't give birth.

There's honestly no reason for some people to be so aggressive in their views. You'd think some posters were suggesting c-section patients be imprisoned - rather than using slightly different terminology!

C section is having a baby and pv birth is giving birth. They're clearly quite different but all that matters is a safely delivered baby

Because women are conditioned to.