... to be over the moon that Trump has been found GUILTY on all 34 charges?

Oh, they will. They have no shame whatsoever.

Well well well…Hunter Biden’s been found guilty in his trial. So there is equal
justice, no matter what family you’re in. The Republicans surely can’t continue with their “two-tier justice system” lies now that the sitting President’s son is convicted…

Yes, so many of Trump's entourage have been to prison now. Loads of them.

And (imo) it should be especially important to show that when crimes are committed, justice will be served. Regardless of time, or wealth or anything else.

Particularly when the co-conspirator in this particular crime (Michael Cohen) was convicted of it and has served time.

You have seriously low standards tbh. Crimes are crimes. Time elapsed doesn't count. And encourages more if you haven't been prosecuted tbh!

For those of you who aren't familiar with the current insanity of Trump's ramblings, some choice quotes for you:

"We pledge to you that we will root out the communists, Marxists, fascists and the radical left thugs that live like vermin within the confines of our country". (speech in November)

"Nobody has ever seen anything like we’re witnessing right now … It’s poisoning the blood of our country." (in a discussion on immigration with National Pulse in September).

Referred to the black judge in charge of his recent trial as "Soros-backed animal who just doesn’t care about right or wrong"

That's just a tiny taste of the disgusting things he's been saying over the past few months.

So just to be clear - are you saying that Trump shouldn't be held accountable for the crimes he committed because if they were committed a few years ago they don't count? You want a two tier system of justice? Or is this just for white collar criminals?

BTW - you're correct that Trump cultists don't care about his criminal record and that his dishonest framing of the prosecutions has even increased their sympathy and support.

But those aren't the voters that matter in the upcoming election.

If you can read the unbelievable pile of rancid, illiterate, rambling, vicious tosh the man is posting Daily on his 'Truth' social and still think 'now that's a man who deserves to be the most powerful leader in the world', then there's genuinely no hope for you. You're lost to all appeals to rationality and human decency.

The ones that matter are those who are currently undecided, and the small number of Republicans that haven't signed up to the Trump cult. This election will be swung on where those votes go.

Honestly Trump has been completely toxic to the US political system. I think you'll look back on this episode of history one day with shame, horror and disbelief at the gullibility of Republican voters.

How is a crime he committed in 2016 two decades ago? The maths ain’t mathin’.

The crime is that he covered up his affair to influence the outcome of the 2016 election. The one that he won by a few thousand votes in some states.

I think it's a bloody outrageous waste of time and money to be prosecuting him for something he did nearly 2 decades ago! Honestly, does anyone really care if he slept with someone and then gave her money not to tell anyone about it?! Christ alive, look at the countries previous Presidents and many have done worse. He'll end up with more supports and be back in the oval office before we know it. Sorry, but the whole thing is bloody ridiculous IMO

@Bullpuckey
"The fact that it hasn't even occurred to you that it would be absolutely psychologically devastating for someone who has only ever known home to be the USA to be torn out of their community and banned from ever returning

The fault is on their parents. "

It's the fault of parents trying to escape from danger and poverty to make a life for themselves in another country? Exactly like you yourself would do in their shoes?

I understand people's worries about immigration, but the sheer hypocrisy of the 'you need to pull yourselves up by the bootstraps' contingent who despise immigrants who've done everything they can to escape poverty, when they themselves would have done exactly the same in their shoes.

Again - it's this profound inability to empathise, something that seems to be present in the marrow of Republicans. Everything you post makes a display of it and you just can't see it.

Why wouldn't someone attack the morals and behaviour of someone who's exhibiting the sort of hard heartedness that you've made such a display of on this thread?

You thinking it so doesn’t make it real.

You'll shout 'Godwin's Law' in response to this, but the lesson of 20th century history is that as a society we shouldn't ignore or normalise the dehumanisation of other people, for the sake of politeness

Having a very normal deportation process is hardly going to bring about the next Holocaust.

Your posts make it so clear that you don't see DACA recipients as having the same humanity as American citizens

They are just as human as you, a fellow non-American citizen. I don’t consider American citizens to be any better or worse than a non-citizen. They just have no right to stay in my home country.

The fact that it hasn't even occurred to you that it would be absolutely psychologically devastating for someone who has only ever known home to be the USA to be torn out of their community and banned from ever returning

The fault is on their parents.

The fact that you've repeatedly ignored it when I've pointed out that this will often involve tearing families apart - separating children from parents, adults from their spouses

If a parent brought their child illegally into the country, it is extremely unlikely they’ll have somehow gained citizenship in the meantime. Haven’t had an amnesty since the Reagan years (one of the -many- reasons I despise Reagan)

Your arguments are simply maga talking points. You're not going to change your mind. You either don't care about the things I care about or you believe allowing the US to turn into a dictatorship and/or the laughing stock of the world by electing a bloviating moron who hands out classified nuclear secrets to billionaires over dinner is ok. Why on earth would I waste my time engaging in genuine discourse with you?

I think we need to agree to disagree here. The bottom line is that we have adults living in the US who were brought into the country illegally by their parents. When they were children. Without their consent or agreement, as they were children. As far as I’m concerned, the US is their “home country”, as this is all they have ever known. They are culturally American. They were educated in America. They will not be passport holders, so it is not likely that they have been to their country of origin, or any other country, for that matter. Their parents will have understood that they would not have been allowed back into the US without a passport or visa.

If we cannot agree that this is not the fault of these children (now adults), there is no hope for us to agree on a humane solution. @Bullpuckey seems to want to put down Christians, but as a Christian myself, I can hand-on-heart say that I know 100% what Jesus’ view of these children would be.

@Bullpuckey

"I am making a distinction between citizens, who have the right to stay, with non-citizens, who don’t. I could say people, but that is imprecise. They aren’t citizens so have no right to stay."

We both know who we're talking about. And we both know why you can't acknowledge the humanity of DACA recipients.

@Bullpuckey

But some DACA recipients have gone on to obtain citizenship, so of course families live in hope

And this is WHY people keep coming. You must take away this incentive or people will keep trying to bend the rules in their favor.

So this is about performative cruelty?

Like the UK's Rwanda scheme?

Except that people will still come. Because what they're leaving behind is worse than coming to the USA even with the prospect of deportation.

Why wouldn't someone attack the morals and behaviour of someone who's exhibiting the sort of hard heartedness that you've made such a display of on this thread?

You'll shout 'Godwin's Law' in response to this, but the lesson of 20th century history is that as a society we shouldn't ignore or normalise the dehumanisation of other people, for the sake of politeness. Your posts make it so clear that you don't see DACA recipients as having the same humanity as American citizens. The fact that it hasn't even occurred to you that it would be absolutely psychologically devastating for someone who has only ever known home to be the USA to be torn out of their community and banned from ever returning. The fact that you've repeatedly ignored it when I've pointed out that this will often involve tearing families apart - separating children from parents, adults from their spouses. :-(

How do you psychologically prepare someone for the possibility of losing everything they've got? Everything they've worked for? For losing community, family, friends, work, home

Anyone on a working visa knows that it could cease at any moment and prepare for that possibility. In some countries, you might only have one month to get your affairs in order if your contract is not renewed. If you are working illegally, it is doubly risky and you must prepare your children for that.

But some DACA recipients have gone on to obtain citizenship, so of course families live in hope

And this is WHY people keep coming. You must take away this incentive or people will keep trying to bend the rules in their favor

I don't think we should 'be kind' to anyone who's facilitating America's slide into an autocracy

That much is clear lol.

I don't think we should be kind to people who support obviously inhumane immigration policy

You saying it is inhumane doesn’t make it so.

Well, not if you completely ignore the devastating psychological and social impact of tearing a person away from their family - including spouses & children, friends and community, and sending them to live alone in a country they may have no memory of at all, knowing they can never return to live in the country they know as home

By definition it is not their home. It may be psychologically difficult to live in a country you do not belong to; that is their parent’s fault.

Although America has some fault for not deporting them in a timely fashion.

By the way I notice you need to refer to DACA recipients as 'non-citizens'. You can't refer to them as 'people' because that would require you to think of them as human beings with the same needs and feelings that you have

I am making a distinction between citizens, who have the right to stay, with non-citizens, who don’t. I could say people, but that is imprecise. They aren’t citizens so have no right to stay.

@Bullpuckey
"Their parents took them to America as children—the parents would have known they could be deported at any moment. Yet their children are somehow unprepared for this outcome? Not very likely."

How do you psychologically prepare someone for the possibility of losing everything they've got? Everything they've worked for? For losing community, family, friends, work, home?

How?

I'm sure most DACA recipients have grown up knowing that there's a chance of them being deported. But some DACA recipients have gone on to obtain citizenship, so of course families live in hope.

Ah, that's the US right wing. Complaining about incivility while advocating the most inhumane policies possible. Such snowflakes. My heart bleeds

Ah yes. Attack the person when you cannot attack the argument. If your arguments were so strong, you’d not resort to such tactics.

@Bullpuckey
For someone from the ‘be kind’ contingent, you should refrain from engaging in nasty personal attacks. Please remain civil."

What makes you think I'm from the 'be kind contingent'? What even is the 'be kind contingent'?

I don't think we should 'be kind' to anyone who's facilitating America's slide into a autocracy.

I don't think we should be kind to people who support obviously inhumane immigration policy.

I think we should call out cruelty, lies, distortions and stupidity when we're confronted with them. If you people had done that you wouldn't be facing going into an election with a convicted felon and a sociopath as the Republican candidate.

I have described a humane process of deportation. There is nothing inhumane about sending a non-citizen back to their home country in principle.

Well, not if you completely ignore the devastating psychological and social impact of tearing a person away from their family - including spouses & children, friends and community, and sending them to live alone in a country they may have no memory of at all, knowing they can never return to live in the country they know as home.

By the way I notice you need to refer to DACA recipients as 'non-citizens'. You can't refer to them as 'people' because that would require you to think of them as human beings with the same needs and feelings that you have.

Ah, that's the US right wing. Complaining about incivility while advocating the most inhumane policies possible. Such snowflakes. My heart bleeds.

90% of the UK is not built on. We do not 'live cheek by jowel

You actually do though and everyone feels it within their cramped housing.

In the US many people choose to live in cities with high population density

Thats where the jobs are.

There are vast swathes of the country with very low population density where the economy is struggling as a result

Bringing in unskilled migrant workers will not help these areas. In fact, this has been done for years in the US and things have only got worse in those places (I am from one such place; I can assure you it is worse than ever)

But the fact that you offer it as justification for treating DACA recipients so inhumanly. God you people are gross

We are not treating them inhumanely. They have a home country. This part you refuse to understand.

We can separate people from their spouse, work, family, community and everything they've ever known, and send them to a place that's poor and dangerous

If everyone who left a ‘poor and dangerous’ country fled to the global north, what do you think would happen?

Their parents took them to America as children—the parents would have known they could be deported at any moment. Yet their children are somehow unprepared for this outcome? Not very likely.

We can ban them from returning to the only place they've ever known as home. We can do this HUMANELY

I have described a humane process of deportation. There is nothing inhumane about sending a non-citizen back to their home country in principle.

Did someone drop you on your head as a child

For someone from the ‘be kind’ contingent, you should refrain from engaging in nasty personal attacks. Please remain civil.