To think Brits dislike success?

No one said it’s ONLY about luck. Hard work does matter. The point being is people saying it’s not about luck it’s about resilience. But resilience in itself is luck, luck with your genes, luck with your environment, luck with people who support you. Resilience is built under the right conditions and just because someone isn’t quite so resilient as someone else, are they less of a person who deserves the shit in their lives?

Been reading for interest, and whilst I acknowledge success can be a combination of hard work and luck, I do not follow this luck argument completely after reading this thread. In fact, its turned me against it.

How can you even tell what 'luck' or 'privilege' every individual you meet has? Do you know their entire life story, their genetic makeup and have an understanding of every engagement they have had? Do you assign a point system to each thing? How do you know someone from a private school hasn't had a terrible upbringing? Are you assuming, rather terribly, that people from poorer backgrounds have had a terrible upbringing? Or are you making snap judgements based on stereotypes to form your opinion?

What is the argument for even trying to achieve something if it's all down to luck and privilege? Does that mean fate exists?

I actually agree with this to a point.

Certainly looking at mine and DHs family history and distant cousins.

It just takes one thing like a father dying early to cause problems. A sister who come from the same background but one was widowed young and doesn't remarry had very different life prospects. Or birth order - being the youngest often had significant advantages to long term futures whereas the eldest often ended up taking on the responsibility of their siblings (especially if parents died)

It would then impact not just on their children but their grandchildren. It seems to be a least two generations before fortunes might reverse.

Equally someone who gets a lucky break by being in the right industry at the right time, might be able to give their children opportunities their cousins couldn't dream of.

Equally though you have families where it's been the same occupation generation after generation. One of DHs direct ancestors was from a coal mining background. He ended up having an affair with a married woman. She got pregnant. They did a runner and settled somewhere else doing something completely different. Turns out it was the best thing he could possibly have done for the long term prospects of the family!

I would say though that you occasionally do find those black sheep who refused to do that and decided to find an alternative path and they often are the very successful ones. It is, to a certain extent, about some one having 'something' about them too rather than just doing what everyone else does / tells them to / is expected of them. The willingness to not conform I do think is something that is overlooked too. This has to be acknowledged that a certain degree of risk taking can be a good thing - as much as it can obviously be a disaster. People who are risk adverse are more likely to just repeat the pattern of their parents and/or peers.

This isn't historically restricted to men either. My family which wasn't terribly wealthy is littered with enterprising women which I really didn't understand or appreciate. The men in this part of the family are really dull and sensible by contrast!

So yes I do think you have much more restricted life chances if you come from a poorer background but I do also think luck and attitude shouldn't be overlooked as not important or something relevant to people from less advantaged backgrounds either.

The level of ignorance in this reply is absolutely staggering. It’s not only available to millionaires no, but to have high resilience you need the correct conditions which some people don’t have and don’t know how to gain access to.

If you’ve had a poor upbringing and belong to a lower SES background, can you not stretch your mind a bit to understand why some people might not be quite as resilient? Yes, some working class folks climb out of it and do well, but many don’t. It does not make you better than them, or them a lazy person who deserves their predicament. It’s attitudes like yours that people have a problem with, not success.

Only to an arsehole, oh wait...

Resilience is a filthy word indeed!

I have suffered with stage 4 endometriosis since 13, been through 3 major surgeries for it, nearly lost several jobs through not heing able to cope with the chronic pain, had a total mental breakdown while going through 5 cycles of IVF yet still kept going, went to work despite wanting to die and just kept going, because giving up and ending up jobless and homeless is not an option.

I have a successful career that I worked hard for, a beautiful large house to raise my baby in that I fought bloody hard to have, horses out the back and a nice stable savings account and I worked my fingers to the bone for it on days I could hardly stand from pain to earn it.

So I don't buy the "I'm lucky nothing shit happened to me in my life" trope. My life has been difficult, painful and traumatic, but I made it through resilience and hard work. Oh and I was born in a council flat to a single mother and inherited nothing so I wasn't given it on a plate, nor was I lucky to have it drop into my lap because I had an easy life! It was just hard work, determination, putting in the hours to get my education, tgen working for free to get experience so I could get the job I wanted with my degree and sheer resilience. As demonstrated by the fact I ended up in a much better place than my siblings and friends who started in the same place than me and have had no sickness to contend with at all.

But no one can accept that here can they, its just self defeating attitudes like be grateful nothing bad happened to you!! Except lots of bad things happened to me and I made it anyway, so why did they give up when I didn't?

Thats the real question here! Why do people give up when circumstances are bad, then get mad at people who didn't give up? The difference between them and people who are successful is not luck, it's resilience!

Resilience is not fixed, nor stable nor is it only available to millionaires

Who is talking about millionaires? I definitely wasn't.

Resilience is the same as hard work . Yay you!

Please do expand on that statement and tell me exactly how you got to that conclusion from what I said.

Resilience is not fixed, nor stable nor is it only available to millionaires

But your level of resilience is also down to luck in terms of your genetics and your upbringing, your support network. Just because someone copes with adversity better than someone else it doesn’t make one person ‘less’ than the next. Resilience in itself is about luck.

I guess we blame women for being unlucky when they are raped.

Tall poppies, Misery Top Trumps... Lucky old Jane. You couldn't make this shit up. Well clearly they can...

Its always an average person being measuring against an extreme example and found lacking for not just curling up into ball. Yes resilience is a filthy, filthy word!

*Then at a critical time at uni, Sarah got raped, got pregnant, got marched into an abortion. She crashed and burned massively, severe mental breakdown, no understanding ,no support ,no help.

Jane was lucky to have the right circumstances and no traumatic /disruptive events to keep studying and get her qualifications and then keep flying high*

Love how the woman in this example was 'lucky' not to get raped. Is that what it is? We're winning at life when we're not raped?

@Floatingvoternolandinsight
Hard work is a truth.
Luck is a truth not a snipe.

The difference is , to do well in life(whatever form that takes), you need both.
Acknowledging that doesn't take away from your hard work. If you think that, that's the need for validation.

Like I said, my life/achievements are nothing to write home about. Some people even pity me or think it's awful. It did take work to get here ironically.I can still acknowledge that I got lucky in so many , many ways. I can acknowledge that many , many people that didn't end up as ok as me did not have my lucky breaks and instead more trauma, more setbacks, more kicking while they were down. So much so, they didn't manage to get back up.

The people who seem to need validation are those that are triggered by the term 'hard work' and yet happy to passive aggressively snipe about others being 'lucky'.

Absolutely nailed it! Brilliant post. 🙌

Luck plays a role far more than people would like to believe.

Yes, this is it, it is hidden advantage and despite being nice people they don’t know they are born!

Yes, education was key in my family, especially for my Dad!

I think for some who insist on the 'hard work and sacrifices' and unsuccessful= didn't do that, it's maybe rooted in needing to believe that it's a level playing field and outside influences have little to no bearing if you just try hard enough, because it's quite scary to think that someone else's decisions, action, inaction etc could have a big impact.
I think that's why we're hearing a lot about the 'squeezed middle' during this COL crisis, I think some genuinely believed that their hard work and sacrifices would shield them against anything like this, they'd done what they needed to do to get the lifestyle they wanted, and that was that.

Now because of outside influences beyond their control, that hard work and sacrifice isn't delivering as they believed it would and should.

It's not that people don't acknowledge the "hard work " part. Most people actually do. They also celebrate and respect that.

It's the insistence that luck played absolutely no part in it and all it took was that hard work. It's comments like "unwilling ", "lazy", "victim mentality ", "personal responsibility ".

I'm not successful,but I'm ok. However ,many people with my background are nowhere near ok. Mental health issues, drug addicts, even dead (either by suicide or otherwise). I am ok because I got lucky in certain things.

Let's take Jane and Sarah. Similar backgrounds, growing up in poverty , not many prospects, but they worked hard ,studied hard ,went to uni.

Then at a critical time at uni, Sarah got raped, got pregnant, got marched into an abortion. She crashed and burned massively, severe mental breakdown, no understanding ,no support ,no help.

Jane was lucky to have the right circumstances and no traumatic /disruptive events to keep studying and get her qualifications and then keep flying high.

Sarah was extremely unlucky to "fail" uni and get no qualifications . That does not negate her hard work before. It does not negate her hard work after to simply keep going, even if she ended up with a (poorly paid) job rather than a career.

Luck plays a part in everything. From genetics, to intellectual ability, to disabilities, to home life/environment, to that one teacher that believes in you/inspires you/encourages you, to that one lucky break, to being in the right place at the right time and so on.

If you need to tell yourself it's all down to your hard work because you need that validation, fair enough. Just don't gleefully shout it out to others ,while insulting them at the same time and showing how much better you are. That kind of validation is not ok. You're not better, you are luckier.

@midgetastic that is an interesting observation. And yes it does appear some of the well off people want to be celebrated.
I would say what does it matter what other people think? Enjoy your life. And if you are not happy with your life, make some changes. Stop thinking about what people you do not really know think of you. It does not matter.

It always interests me on property shows - the least happy people on the whole are those with the biggest budgets - they can never find what they want , never satisfied

Not always of course but a clear trend

Perhaps this desire to be celebrated is part of that dissatisfaction with themselves and their lives ? Always needing validation ?

Not always

Sometimes it's a reaction to being insulted

• when someone attributes their success to hard work they are insulting the work ethic of the less successful person.

Sometimes it's just that you feel successful but the other person thinks "what a prat" - different values

You shouldn't need or expect other people to value you - accept that sone people find the pursuit of money in itself as not worth shouting about

If one person told me they had made a million and another told me they had learnt to speak French , I might feel the second person to be more successful and have more to be proud of - it's just the way it is

Why do I feel like that ? Guess it's just the people I have met - with most of the ones who value money being not nice people ?

Also I value the work I do and how it contributes to society, more than the work that they have done - it gets paid less but since I have enough ( average family income here ) that's fine by me

Guess I also don't value stuff as much as sone others which is why a modest income is sufficient and I can't really understand the desire for big houses, posh cars , fancy holidays because I have so much fun in my life any way ?

They should be celebrating your success not resenting it.

@Floatingvoternolandinsight exactly what you said.

The country has also been used and abused in the name of fairness and inequality. It seems that the only way the people with this mindset would be happy is if they are all poor so that nobody is left behind in the equality system. I definitely experienced the tall poppy syndrome and lately have reflected in the several meetings with ex colleagues and people from university and I was wondering what did I do wrong. Now I know. They were struggling to process where I started and where I am now. Sad really. I am always glad when someone do well. In fact it makes me very happy. Even if is pure luck and inheritance or something like that.