Page 4 | To think that improving state schools needs people to pay an e.g. a state school tax?

crumblingschools · 29/05/2024 14:10

@Theyhadsomehoneyandplentyofmoney politicians never do! Education have had some shit, completely unthought out policies under Tory Government and now this one from Labour! They need someone in charge who understands Education, the churn of Education Secretaries in the last few years has been horrendous and the only experience they had of education was going to school, and most of them were probably private or grammar.

I bet very few, if any, senior politicians of any political persuasion send their kids to failing schools

MrsJackThornton · 29/05/2024 14:07

Theyhadsomehoneyandplentyofmoney · 29/05/2024 13:56

Quite. Particularly when there’s no justification for it.. I can see why tax increases (for all) used to improve all state schools would be acceptable. It is probably quite justifiable. Many people don’t seem to like that, though they are happy for others to pay tax on private education. It’s a puzzle.

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Most people aren't objecting to paying more tax towards education on this thread. they are objecting to the idea that only those with children in state school should pay more tax

I have no children (although my nephew currently lives with me) but I see the need for education for all so a universal increase to the tax I pay specifically for education I can understand

But your argument seems to be "as a private school parent I will have to pay 20% more so I am going to throw my toys out of the pram and demand parents in extreme poverty also have to pay 20% tax"

You are complaining about other people's entitlement but yours is palpable on this thread

Original poster

Theyhadsomehoneyandplentyofmoney · 29/05/2024 14:00

Someone just sent me this. Couple of days old I think. Who knows how accurate it is 🤷‍♀️. Certainly not Labour. Not sure they’ve done any research at all.

To think that improving state schools needs people to pay an e.g. a state school tax?

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Original poster

Theyhadsomehoneyandplentyofmoney · 29/05/2024 13:56

AngryHedgehog · 29/05/2024 12:48

People never have an issue with tax increases until it's them paying it! 🤣

Quite. Particularly when there’s no justification for it.. I can see why tax increases (for all) used to improve all state schools would be acceptable. It is probably quite justifiable. Many people don’t seem to like that, though they are happy for others to pay tax on private education. It’s a puzzle.

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WithACatLikeTread · 29/05/2024 13:14

HeraSyndulla · 28/05/2024 14:17

And many people choose to invest in their child's education directly. Many hard working people who priorities their kids future. But apparently they are the "entitled and privileged bubble".

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Those with children in state also value education you know?

Original poster

Theyhadsomehoneyandplentyofmoney · 29/05/2024 13:09

Anonymouseposter · 29/05/2024 07:57

I don’t agree with only users of state schools paying an extra tax . Some things are a collective responsibility like health and education. Everyone pays . I do think that all public services are in a mess and, while we need to be sure that there isn’t waste in the way they are managed, we alll might need to pay more taxes. ( including pensioners of which I’m one). Some people can’t seem to get their heads round paying for stuff that they might not use as an individual but are of general benefit.

You’re right.

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AngryHedgehog · 29/05/2024 12:48

People never have an issue with tax increases until it's them paying it! 🤣

MaryMaryVeryContrary · 29/05/2024 12:47

I’m always amazed by the ‘ludicrous, unenforceable’ ideas on here that are the norm for most European countries.

Original poster

Theyhadsomehoneyandplentyofmoney · 29/05/2024 12:45

Pollypickpockets · 29/05/2024 12:25

This is my situation exactly, and so many others. I’ll still vote Labour but I wish they weren’t doing this.

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When I’ve voted, I’ve only ever voted for Labour. This time. Will definitely not vote for Labour. Not on this private school issue (though that pisses me off), it’ll be on the women’s rights issue.

Labour don’t actually recognise women. They think some women have penises. They’re going to allow predatory men to self id as women, following a GP appointment. So no thank you Labour, I won’t vote for a party that don’t recognise my sex, and that put my daughters in danger.

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Sahara123 · 29/05/2024 12:42

Theyhadsomehoneyandplentyofmoney · 29/05/2024 12:23

There would be no uniforms. But the money would instead go to improving the schools.

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Yes but it’s our money .. you think we should give the money we would spend on uniforms to the school ?
I like uniforms, it’s easier .
People who are on a very low income won’t do this.
Its a tax by the back door.

.

AngryHedgehog · 29/05/2024 12:36

Maybe it should be means tested and everybody over a certain threshold pays a little extra to help fund improvements in state education.

Of course, private education is a choice/luxury, but how many people are sitting there comfortably letting the government/rest of us pay for their kids education while pocketing the money they could've spent on private schooling?

Often this will be families in posh areas where the schools will generally be decent as no riff raff can afford the local property prices.

Original poster

Theyhadsomehoneyandplentyofmoney · 29/05/2024 12:34

Kellykukoo · 28/05/2024 20:36

Not as ridiculous a thought as taxing parents who already contribute much higher income tax than most people do to the public purse and who also save the state the 7000 odd pounds a year to educate their child or multiple children.
I wonder why is it more palatable to have someone else sacrifice yet more money to fund not only their children but also your children's education. You can't conceive sacrificing a bit of money to the school to educate your own child to the standard you are after.
There's just so much entitlement in the UK that it results in this hopelessly regressive labour policy.

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Quite. The entitlement in the U.K. is shocking.

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Original poster

Theyhadsomehoneyandplentyofmoney · 29/05/2024 12:32

FTPM1980 · 28/05/2024 21:20

Because private education is a luxury service that is currently an anomaly in not attracting VAT.

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Not quite. Education is exempt from VAT at the moment. Hence no VAT on any educational service.

Labour are proposing to impose VAT on education. Only on private school educational services though.

So where does it end? What other educational services will Labour impose VAT on?

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Original poster

Theyhadsomehoneyandplentyofmoney · 29/05/2024 12:28

TheDefiant · 28/05/2024 17:01

@Theyhadsomehoneyandplentyofmoney how should state schools be improved?

Well I personally am involved in a statutory structure that exists in Scotland to support schools. So I actually have access to some ideas based with some (maybe too little) knowledge.

These suggestions are for secondary schooling and this relevant to Scotland only

We need more GOOD teachers in shortage subjects (maths, all the sciences, home economics and CDT)

Teachers need systems that allow them to appropriately discipline pupils and follow through on this discipline. Ironically pupils recognise this too and when surveyed they are the ones suggesting the harshest of discipline.

Parents need to support the school and their children. Parents need to be engaged. An engaged and supportive parent is one of the biggest indicators of attainment at a level that matters/is important to the pupil.

Attendance needs to be prioritised where it is relevant to do so (100% attendance is ridiculous everyone is ill sometimes)

Pupils need supported to have self discipline, self respect, self confidence and self esteem.

There's too much focus on resilience now and my opinion is resilience is decreasing.

A lot of improvement for attainment at school starts at home.

Parents should attend the course "raising teenagers with confidence". It's amazing.

‘Parents need to support the school and their children. Parents need to be engaged. An engaged and supportive parent is one of the biggest indicators of attainment at a level that matters/is important to the pupil’.

Absolutely. But so many parents don’t do this, and are not engaged at all. These parents would appreciate or take any help. Many would I’d hope, but from my own experience, most wouldn’t.

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Pollypickpockets · 29/05/2024 12:25

Icepop79 · 28/05/2024 23:40

Please don’t tar us all with the same brush. My daughter is at private school. We moved her after 2 years of bullying and social isolation in state secondary school. Waiting lists for other local state schools were full and we considered moving to different catchment areas but that would have been a huge lifestyle change for the whole family. Private school seemed the best solution.

Shes thriving - her confidence has come back and she’s accepted and well-liked. We now have to consider whether to send our son there when he’s secondary age because we don’t want them having a disparity of education.

I am anxious about the likely fee increase. We cannot risk my daughter’s emotional well-being by taking her out but I genuinely don’t know if we can afford to keep her there or send her brother there. I dearly wish it wasn’t part of labour’s manifesto but it was always going to be and it’s not going to stop me voting for them. They are still a better party to govern this country than the shitshow we’ve had for the last 14 years.

I think all I’m saying is your empathy doesn’t need to be misplaced. I want Labour in power. I’ll have to figure out a way to ensure my daughter doesn’t have to move schools. I know I’m in a privileged position to have sent her there in the first place. I know private education is not a right - it’s not something I even considered until we had faced her coming home from school sobbing week after week. But I’m a little scared about what comes next for my family.

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This is my situation exactly, and so many others. I’ll still vote Labour but I wish they weren’t doing this.

Original poster

Theyhadsomehoneyandplentyofmoney · 29/05/2024 12:23

Sahara123 · 28/05/2024 16:28

How does that work? We buy uniforms, pay the school and then don’t get uniforms! I don’t understand

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There would be no uniforms. But the money would instead go to improving the schools.

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Original poster

Theyhadsomehoneyandplentyofmoney · 29/05/2024 12:16

User79853257976 · 28/05/2024 20:50

They are going to get the 20% from you lot.

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There are many posts and articles showing actually, they won’t. But I understand your desire to believe it will. That’s what Labour are relying on after all.

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TheaBrandt · 29/05/2024 09:23

Any one with half a brain even if they don’t have children of their own sees the advantage of an educated population! Can only conclude this op is pretty dim.

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 29/05/2024 09:20

Theyhadsomehoneyandplentyofmoney · 28/05/2024 13:36

What with the current hoo ha about VAT on private school and commentary about equality and privilege.. wouldn’t it make sense to vastly improve state schools? And in order to do so obviously the government needs more cash.

Isn’t it reasonable therefore to ask anyone using state schools, to pay a bit of tax for that, in order to improve all said schools from their (often) current dire state?

Be a bit pointless considering everyone uses state schools, unless your suggesting creating an opt out system whereby you can get out of this new tax if you make no use at all of state education?

Not sure how easy it would be for those who went down the route to live or work in the UK though when they'd be banned from using roads, housing, m the NHS, public services, emergency services, many private services, supermarkets, shops, etc, etc, etc.

Oh and as a country with its own currency and central bank we don't need to raise taxes to create funding. Taxes are inflationary control and wealth redistribution measures, not funding mechanisms.

MrsJackThornton · 29/05/2024 09:12

crumblingschools · 29/05/2024 08:44

@MrsJackThornton but Labour’s policy is like adding VAT on Michelin star restaurant whilst still leaving 2.6 million children in material deprivation and being told this is a good start to tackling the poverty issue

I didn't say that labour's idea was going to fix material deprivation

I challenged the idea that charging poor people who can't afford it more for education was "sensible and equitable"

TheaBrandt · 29/05/2024 09:11

Dds friends mum is a single mum who works hard as a hospital cleaner. You want her to pay?

TheaBrandt · 29/05/2024 08:48

There seems to be this weird resentment that there are some dream state schools that others are unfairly accessing. Honestly even the good state schools are dealing with the same issues as all the others teacher retention / over administration for teachers/ inability to remove nightmare pupils etc.

crumblingschools · 29/05/2024 08:44

@MrsJackThornton but Labour’s policy is like adding VAT on Michelin star restaurant whilst still leaving 2.6 million children in material deprivation and being told this is a good start to tackling the poverty issue

TheaBrandt · 29/05/2024 08:38

Absolutely MrsJack. Personally wouldn’t mind paying for a good state but some of the girls at dds all girl state girls comp live lives this op will likely never understand.

MrsJackThornton · 29/05/2024 08:35

Kellykukoo · 28/05/2024 23:10

Honestly.. there's no need to be so obtuse. The parents for whom the extra 20% will make it unaffordable are understandably anxious and start threads or make comments on other threads to that effect. Hopefully, you are decent enough to abstain from minimising their valid concerns for their children.
We can expect to hear little on this or any forum from the very wealthy parents who perharps won't even notice the extra 20%. They are hardly likely to start any thread or comment on something they barely notice.
And then there's those in the middle who will notice but who have the means and determination to sacrifice even more to retain stability for their children. People in the middle like the OP, who has made a far more sensible and equitable proposal than the labour party leadership. Hope this helps.

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The OPs "sensible and equitable proposal" puts an additional burden on people who already struggle to afford to feed their children

It's not equitable at all, it's petulant "I have to pay more money for private school so the very poor in the country should have to pay more money for state school to make me feel better"

2.6 million children are in material deprivation in the UK and the OP would like their families to be worse off because she is as if the two situations are even comparable.

It's like complaining that the food you are eating at a Michelin star restaurant has VAT and instead of eating cheaper you demand that supermarket food also had VAT applied so poorer people who can't afford to eat at Michelin star restaurants understand how you feel.

There's nothing equitable about making poor people poorer