To think schools should get with the times re working parents.

Spot on, @FlyingPandas

So many outraged parents demanding that before and after school care be provided ... for peanuts ... genuinely can't understand why it isn't being offered or why it costs what it actually does in so many areas. Yet when presented as a 'sure fire business plan for them to run', the shock, the outrage, the 'no one could survive on those hours and on such a pittance.

But they expect others to jump at the chance.

Even extending the school day by an hour would cost an effing fortune in government spending ... because teacher/ta/staff salaries would have to be increased to cover the increased hours ... meaning increased taxes or cuts elsewhere. Not sure people get that at all.

Of course it would be feasible if we taxed the top 5% and major corporations sensibly and and closed all the loopholes so we could pay such providers properly, but we don't. And we won't. Because it doesn't make sense politically. Utter shame.

They will not be asked to run the after-school club. It will be run by a private provider!

Well I thought it would give them some extra income if they are at home the rest of the day with no way of working. Maybe they are so wealthy they don’t need it? Working parents don’t have as much relaxing time. It is what it is.

Because teachers are parents as well

So it seems there are still a large block of parents who don’t need to work and choose not to. How are they surviving? Do they all have partners who are accountants and stockbrokers?

I am asking because I have a professional job and have always needed to work. In fact I am very glad I kept working and never entertained the idea of just living off my husband because eventually my marriage ended and I was left supporting the kids single-handed. There was no way I was personally ever going to end up on benefits when I had decent qualifications and the ability to provide a better life for my family. Having said that, I don’t see myself particularly better off than anyone else. At least I am not worse off as a one parent family, which is statistically the trend.

Just saying this because over the years I encountered a few teachers who rather thought I was working just for the fun of it and who seemed to assume all mothers could still stay home. I’ve encountered the sudden invitations to school events at 2pm the next day etc. The resistance to wraparound childcare seems to be linked to this. They don’t think it’s necessary. Don’t you see this issue is directly linked to the kids having warm winter coats, good shoes, a warm home etc?

I remember the sense of panic when one childminder proved to be unsuitable and another needed to be found at short notice - and the sheer incomprehension of teachers about the fact I still needed to get into work. I remember the desperation of calling round trying to find someone. I also remember teachers being really resistant to the idea of an after-school club when it was first proposed, though we got one.

I didn’t go out work because I didn’t want to be with my kids. I worked because I do love them and wanted the best for them but I couldn’t see any other way. Is this so hard to understand?

Do you mean a lot of SAHMs will want to go out to work 3-6 and then have a rushed evening of dinner and not much relaxing family time etc just so their child can have a place at an after school club they don't need?

Sort of get the OPs point , although she's being stubborn and arrogant responding to the replies - the usual 'AIBU? no I'm not and here's why!" sort of thing.

The change from 8-6 nursery hours to school hours comes as a shock for some.

I think the OP is posing a reasonable question without having any sensible or realistic answers.

Free or subsided wrap around care in all schools would need a hell of a lot of government money chucking at it, and the trained staff just wouldn't be around.

You can't mess the school day as teachers won't stand for their hours just being messed about like that.

You're also not taking into account t the equally big problem of school holiday provision

Finally, what about all the childminders who will see their customer base disappear?

There is no answer basically, the parents have to just do their best and find a job that fits the school day.

Ours used to start the end of June. We went back in August. Some EYFS kids were still 3 starting school. I was one of them. Holidays were still expensive.

You've ignored the teachers who have said the opposite.

My issue is kids preventing me from working as it is impossible to work with 30 kids around my feet and using my resources and spoiling my work.

There would be no ‘cheaper’ season-the prices would just be high all summer but all the parents employed locally would be fighting for the same few weeks off.

The strange thing is I can imagine a lot of mums who don’t have other jobs would be happy to work those hours if their kids got a free place in the wraparound!

Not In my experience. Lots of mums who don’t have other jobs, aso have younger children, so having one ‘free’ at breakfast club doesn’t help at all. If they don’t have younger children then there is more likelihood that they will use the breakfast club but get a job that is more than 60/90 minutes-far better financially to get one that pays you for 7 hours.

4 weeks? Are you going to pay school staff for the increase in contact time?

What happens when the children on school staff have a different holiday allocation? It would the nail in the coffin for me leaving the profession.

Summer holidays 4 weeks in 5 batches starting first week of July through to August. Maybe even start some regions late June. Might be too early with exams though. People would appreciate cheaper holidays is season was lengthened.

Some, probably. Not sure it's a lot. Split shift jobs done exclusively during time you could have with your DC are just not that popular.

I don't doubt there are a few parents this would suit. There are some SAHPs of school aged kids who'd like to work, can't get anything during the school day and are being hampered by a lack of wraparound only.

However, think of all the other reasons why someone in this position wouldn't be working. They might not want to use wraparound childcare or have DC who could cope with it, in which case a free place changes nothing. They might not need the money, so again the free place changes nothing. And doing this job also means the prime slot for primary aged DC hobbies and clubs isn't going to be available if both you and DC are busy til 6. It means a real rush of an evening.

The job of wraparound care worker is just not a very attractive one, even to primary carers of DC, because of the logistics. Most schools who provide wraparound themselves seem to do it as an add on to TA hours, which comes with its own recruitment issues but is at least providing a (crap) full time wage. At least with childminders, while the money isn't great they have the opportunity to earn during the school day too.

Women who want work that they can fit around their primary aged DC also have a lot more options now than even a few years back. The pool to recruit in is much smaller.

The strange thing is I can imagine a lot of mums who don’t have other jobs would be happy to work those hours if their kids got a free place in the wraparound! Obviously a lot of schools do manage to organise this already.

Wrap around care shouldn't be the responsibility of teachers, either to run or to organise. If there is such demand, why aren't child care providers falling over themselves to offer it? Why don't I have them banging on the school door desperate to hire the school hall every night for the purpose? Why don't holiday club providers want to use the premises during the holidays? Yes, there is SOME demand (and I'm sure there are places where it is profitable ) but not enough to make it financially viable wholesale without huge subsidies- and who is going to do that? My school budget is scarcely enough to pay the staff we have. So, who is going to organise it, who is going to subsidise it and where are the staff coming from who want to work 3-6 every day term time only for minimum wage ?

Free hours for nursery provision is going SO well, isn't it. You can imagine the same for wrap round care!

I'm a teacher, all my colleagues are leaving in droves and I will be too if the kids are in 8-6! When do you propose we do planning, marking etc?

The work culture is what needs to change.

That 8:00 to 5:00 or 6:00 and 40 hour work weeks are outdated.

The teachers posting here seem determined to ignore the fact the OP has said she doesn’t expect the extra childcare to be operated by teachers

No they don't. Some teachers have posted this.

From three years old, children in France have a free écoles maternelles place from 8h30, a paying breakfast club can be ealier, till 4.30 pm with a paying after school club till 6pm, Some schools have places for younger children but all have to be clean. The children eat at the canteen a three course French lunch and they have an afternoon nap. The classes are large but the teacher has an assistant. Schools employ assistants for extra outside hours. Primary starts at the age of 6 with the same hours. Maybe the UK could take some good ideas from other countries to help mothers back to work with less stress.

From what so many posters have said, it seems like plenty of schools do offer wraparound childcare and also plenty of schools don’t. I wonder what divides the two groups? Is it a difference in attitudes of school management or different demographics? Are the areas with no wraparound childcare awash with SAHPs? Or are there some amazing 9am to 3pm jobs available there, unlike the rest of the country? Why can some schools make it work and others not?

The teachers posting here seem determined to ignore the fact the OP has said she doesn’t expect the extra childcare to be operated by teachers.

I work in wraparound care. All our staff are female. The school I work at runs the breakfast club and after school club. It is run as a not for profit organisation and is very affordable. I think more schools could do this.

I think that’s a question a lot of young women are now asking themselves and their answer is reflected in the falling birth rate.

This idea that some of you seem to have that schools can operate child minding all these extra hours before and after the start of lessons is ridiculous.

So here's a plan for all these parents desperate for wraparound care/childminder provision whose work days are inflexible: Have a career change! Set up your own childcare business! Become a childminder, or set up your own wraparound care facility! You'd have no shortage of clients, would you?

"Ooh, but no, because the pay is rubbish...and the hours are not family friendly...and I couldn't pay my rent/mortgage if I was only earning what a childcare worker earns...and I wouldn't be there for my own DC would I...and the DC I'd be looking after would be really hard work wouldn't they....and the parents would be rude and entitled and it would be really stressful and it's just not worth it...."

and that's why people don't want to work in wraparound care.

And not only this, when people suggest all companies start splitting shifts to allow parents to finish at 3 while others work the late shift, I can guarantee that once those with children no longer need to do the school run they won't be volunteering to start doing like 3-8!
No one WANTS to work unsociable crap hours. I can't see many people actively seeking out to work 7-9am then 3-6pm.