Paula Vennels being questioned at the Post Office Inquiry, followed by others - thread 2

There may be some they can pursue civil cases against, but that won't include people like Vennells. They want to bring private criminal prosecutions if the authorities fail to do so.

I believe Bates has now been offered one third of his claim. Compensation should certainly put the subpostmasters back in the position they would have been but for the way Post Office treated them. That is supposed to be the intention of the schemes. However, the usual "we are protecting public money" mindset seems to be in operation, as a result of which the people operating these schemes are disputing claims and trying to find ways of reducing them even though they have been very carefully calculated by forensic accountants.

Absolutely.

I believe Alan Bates and all are trying to get the funds to privately prosecute Vennels et al.

But I would be interested to know if they could sue, civilly, Vennels and the rest of them.
I know the Group Litigation Alan Bates vs the Post Offuce Ltd was a civil court and they won £50m, but that was against the Post Office as a company.
I winder if they now they could sue people individually?

Whereas they should be offered all that they paid, plus interest. It would be nice to see if Vennells et al. were forced to pay back their bonuses - it would go some way to covering the amounts due.

This is where it gets complicated.
There are 3 different compensation schemes

Overturned Convictions Scheme - this is for the SPMR who were criminally convicted.
Apparently they have all received an interim payment of £600,000. They need to apply for any more compensation

Group Litigation Order (GLO) Scheme - this is for the 555 SPMR who joined Alan Bates when they went to High Court to sue the Post Office and they won (this is in the ITV drama)
They have all been offered £75,000 each.

Horizon Shortfall Scheme - this is for all the other SPMR who werent convicted, biut had to pay money for the supoosed shortfalls. They were either made bankrupt, sued by the Post Office or paid for any fake losses out of their own pockets. The SPMR have to make an application had submit evidence.

To be honest, none of these 3 schemes are working. They are slow, offer stupid small amounts of compensation and the application process is complicated and difficult.

Even more horrifically, one or two of the Post Office lawyers who were involved in the scandal and convicting SPMR, still.work for the Post Office. You want to know what they are currently doing? Well, they are working on the compensation schemes!
In my opinion this is a conflict of interest at best, corruption at worst.

Interestingly, Jo Hamiltin, who was convicted , said she was one of the "lucky" ones. Because she was convicted, the Overturned Conviction Scheme is much easier and getting compensation is much quicker.

Whereas, everyone else, who weren't convicted, like Alan Bates, are really struggling with the other 2 compensation schemes.
Alan Bates has applied either through the GLO scheme or the Horizon Shortfall Scheme, because he was not convicted. Anyway he submitted an application and has only been offered a 1/6th of what he asked for.

Sorry fur another long post 😶‍🌫️

not sure whether everyone will be able to read this but here’s a link to the story on X:

https://x.com/chrish9070/status/1796430290920874026?s=46&t=HayxxYISkdxqZGELM1SOCg

Has it be covered at all: what has happened to those SPMs who weren't convicted but non the less paid over substantial sums of money to cover the supposed shortfalls? Will they be getting their money refunded?

Has anyone added up how much money this is?

Thanks for the timetable reminder
I don't want to come across as finding this Inquiry as "entertainment" but I am looking forward to certain witnesses in the next 2 months

(I know "looking forward" is the wrong thing to say. I sort of mean, they are witnesses who will be providing more key insight and information)

Alice Perkins - wed/Thurs 5th and 6th. She was the chair of the board. She has been named quite a lot. Someone on this thread described her and Paula Vennels as the "mean girls", which is fitting. She is the one who kept Sue Critchon sat on the chair outside the board meeting and wouldn't let her in.

Andrew Parsons - wed/Thurs 13th and 15rh. He is the lawyer from Bond Dickinson.
He has not come across well so far from the emails we've seen, so I want to see who this guy is in person and if he tries to blame other people or actually takes responsibility
He is the guy who wrote in an email that "Alan Bates has a somewhat loose relationship with the truth"

Ron and Ian from Second Sight - Tues 18th. The 2 brilliant guys from Second Sight and their report which blew everything open. They've done a lot of interviews, so we have quite a lot of insight from them, but I think they will really go for it in this Inquiry

Graham Ward - Thurs 20th. He was one of the Secuirty team investigators/case managers, now works for the Police. He already was questioned in Phase 3, but they are bringing him back, I wonder why? The KC have probably found something and they are going to question him about it.

Gareth Jenkins - he is on everyday for a whole week. The supposed Horizon "expert" from fujitsu and his incorrect expert opinion, lots of people, Seema Misra, were sent to prison.
As I understand it he has been trying to get immunity from prosecution, but not sure if he has been successful.

The MPs - all in July. Ed Davey, Jo Swinson and Vince Cable.

So what's the deal?

Where has he been? What's he doing? Where is he?!!!!! What's he playing at

I see on X that the Mirror has tracked down Mike Young, who was supposedly mysteriously missing and said by the Inquiry to be uncontactable…. all very odd.

https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/public-hearings-timeline

This is the timeline for the post office Horizon enquiry, the current phase will run until July. They will then break for the summer and will resume again in September.

To the Post Office they were never people.

There is a business maxim:

you are what you measure, you get what you reward

For the SLT of the Post Office all they were measuring for was profit, it didn't matter how they got there. They rewarded the investigation teams on the amount of recovered fraud losses. It didn't matter that they weren't real fraud losses.

A PP described the culture of the Post Office as being very blamey. Everything is someone else's fault. The SPMs were the ultimate whipping boys.

Oh gosh yes.

IIRC Seema Misra was there, next to her lawyer, when they were questioning Martin Smith the lawyer from Cartwright King.
They questioned him a note he wrote about 'Misra may crawl out of the woodwork''.

I mean what the fuck! The SPMR were insects to them, no longer seen as humans or people.

Seema Misra too...

It's difficult to describe, isn't it?

I've seen other SPMR sirlt beside the lawyers, like Lee Castleton and Anne Quarm

Lee Castleton really got to me. He was there, sat next to his lawyer, when they questioned that knobhead lawyer Stephen Dilley.
If you haven't seen it, watch it. But be prepared to be more angry than you have ever been
Stephen Dilley spent the entire time in the witness stand blaming Lee Castleton:
Refused to acknowledge the settlement offer was a sham, refused to acknowledge any mistakes he made, refused to apologise to Lee Castleton, even though he was sat right there.

How the hell Jo Hamilton and the other SPMR are doing it, I dont know.
What I do know is I couldn't do what they are doing. The pure bravery and dignity is incredible.

I don't know how Jo Hamilton does it, you are right about the look on her face and her demeanour.

Absolutely true about Jo Hamilton

Absolutely @GnomeDePlume 💯

Thing is, i think it's even worse than a Kafka-esque torture.

• Firstly taking them to criminal court, to convict them of crimes the SPMR didn't commit. Prison sentences, community orders and criminal records for life.
• Secondly, not just content with that, the PO then started confiscation proceedings, taking every penny the SPMR did (or didn't have). Homes, savings, possessions all gone.
• Thirdly, still not content with that, the PO went after the SPMR health. Physical health, mental health and family relationships. Destroyed it all.
• Fourth, even in death the Post Office still wont leave them alone. Commit suicide or die before your conviction is overturned, the Post Office will still come at you. Numerous PR/Media strategies to try to convince everyone your dearh is your own fault - and critically not the PO fault.
• Finally, even when all that is done. The PO make the compensation schemes difficult to navigate, complex to apply for. And to really make sure you're kicked in the face, only offer tiny amounts of compensation AND have the same lawyers who fucked you over now decide how much compensation.youll get

The PO didn't just ruin the SPMR, they did everything to try to obliterate them.

I've watched all the inquiry, and Jo Hamilton has gone everyday. When she is in the camera shot and sat next to her lawyer, she is there for every single witness.
I've watched her closely, and she never takes her eyes off who ever is sat in the hot seat.
She has this look on her face, that never changes. I don't know how to describe it.
It's not anger, or hatred, or smirking, or revenge
Its a look of pure bravery - I don't know is that too trite?

Anyway, another rant over.

… none of them have read Kafka, let’s be clear on that 😬

they recruited her from within. I think there lies the problem.

Not really recruited from within. She had something like a 25 year career in private industry - unilever, l'oreal, whitbread and one other before joining the PO, which she did at a senior level and soon becoming Managing Director of the PO side of Royal Mail before the two were split up.

Angela van den Bogard was one recruited from within.

@minou123 the rant is fully justified

I'm left wondering how people can live with themselves. Do they now understand that for the SPMs their treatment was a Kafka-esque torture?

I would expect most of them had never set foot in a court before in any capacity. To be told they had to plead guilty to crimes they knew they hadn't committed or face worse penalty. Losing their homes, life savings, good standing in their communities.

'Sorry' especially so, so late doesn't even begin to repair this. I am not sure there can ever be atonement for Paula Vennells.

as CEO you aren't responsible for everything that happens underneath you

that’s the biggest pile of horseshit going, and she knows it. Its lesson 101 of corporate training at c-suite level.

i actually know a ceo that was prosecuted and went to jail. It was in the USA. He had plenty of advice, some good, some bad and unfortunately for him he listened to the bad. The good advice would have meant swallowing his pride and negotiating a deal with the Feds, slap on the wrist and a fine for the company. Unfortunately he took it all far too personally and tried to front it out, which doesn’t work in the USA when they lose their patience and bring the full force of the government to court.

And it was all over done actions of some front line employees, who were exceeding what they were allowed to do by law. The key for the prosecution was that the company didn’t act and discipline the rogue employees when others raised concerns. And as the guy at the top, he went to jail. I think one other c-suite occupant was also prosecuted and found guilty but avoided jail time.

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Very true.

The shirking of responsibility was atrocious.

I tend to think of these things in terms of how I would feel. The guilt would consume me. This probably explains why I have never got beyond lower management!

From the Times: