Irish PM: ‘We see Hamas as an illegal and disgusting terrorism organisation’

pandarific · 2024-05-22T10:06:59+00:00

The speeches announcing recognition of the Palestinian state were SO GOOD. I cried through most of it. Video here: [[https://www.youtube.com/live/bm81x9kFAKU?si=69O9Oke9TMFSM39o https://www.youtube.com/live/bm81x9kFAKU?si=69O9Oke9TMFSM39o]] Takeaways from Irish speech: - ‘We see hamas as an illegal and disgusting terrorist organisation’ - Palestine has a right to democratic leadership - This paves a way to a political path to peace - For moderates in both countries, for decent people in both countries - Palestine has a right to exist securely - Israel has a right to exist securely - We need a two state solution - A political path to peace

Original poster

pandarific · 23/05/2024 15:03

@lovelysoap it’s amusing that each time you respond you manufacture something else you want me to have said.

OP posts:

Hankunamatata · 23/05/2024 12:35

Palestine has to have a recognisable state. Its the only way things can move forward and stop the illegal land grabbing

lovelysoap · 23/05/2024 12:32

pandarific · 22/05/2024 20:34

@lovelysoap Ireland as a country is facing many issues, like all countries, and many in Western Europe - racism, misogyny, far right ideology taking root - it’s nothing special there. Also there has been a rise in anti semitism.

It’s lovely that you have such huge faith in the government of Ireland. Many don't.

Part of the reason I do have faith in the genuineness of the Irish gov’s statement on this is because the foreign policy has been (relatively) consistent. Also in terms of the population, fundamental universal human rights are taught in school - couple that with the colonial past and… that’s where it comes from. Another reason I have faith in this government is because they, unlike Sinn Fein who imo often fall into populist tactics, were critical that Micheál Martin was attending Israel as well as Gaza - Martin pointed out quite rightly that that is what diplomacy is, speaking to people and finding out what they want, in their own words.

I do not believe that any of the statements above by the Irish government reflect specifically anti semitism or anti Jewish feeling, and the offer to try and help in any way possible to broker a peace is genuine. Not all Israelis support the actions of the current regime just as not all Palestinians support Hamas - there should be no respect given to those who won’t come to the table and talk.

Anyway, it is late and I am tired. Goodnight.

If you think the solution to the Israeli /palestinian problem is simply for Ireland to get them to talk then you are woefully ignorant of the situation and you completely underestimate the complexity.

The containment of the problem is multi faceted and ongoing but thank you for your meaningless word salad.

Original poster

pandarific · 22/05/2024 20:34

@lovelysoap Ireland as a country is facing many issues, like all countries, and many in Western Europe - racism, misogyny, far right ideology taking root - it’s nothing special there. Also there has been a rise in anti semitism.

It’s lovely that you have such huge faith in the government of Ireland. Many don't.

Part of the reason I do have faith in the genuineness of the Irish gov’s statement on this is because the foreign policy has been (relatively) consistent. Also in terms of the population, fundamental universal human rights are taught in school - couple that with the colonial past and… that’s where it comes from. Another reason I have faith in this government is because they, unlike Sinn Fein who imo often fall into populist tactics, were critical that Micheál Martin was attending Israel as well as Gaza - Martin pointed out quite rightly that that is what diplomacy is, speaking to people and finding out what they want, in their own words.

I do not believe that any of the statements above by the Irish government reflect specifically anti semitism or anti Jewish feeling, and the offer to try and help in any way possible to broker a peace is genuine. Not all Israelis support the actions of the current regime just as not all Palestinians support Hamas - there should be no respect given to those who won’t come to the table and talk.

Anyway, it is late and I am tired. Goodnight.

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Original poster

pandarific · 22/05/2024 19:38

I wonder who is going to fund this proposed new state.

Most of it went to building terror infrastructure like tunnels and rockets for Hamas and some nice estates in Qatar for the leadership to live in and for them to become billionaires. No money for bomb shelters for ordinary Gazans

Both good questions - and another reason for a true diplomatic process, not against. There should be, and if it happens, there will be massive scrutiny.

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lovelysoap · 22/05/2024 19:37

pandarific · 22/05/2024 19:29

@lovelysoap the government of Ireland are very pro universal human rights - not rights for allies and no rights for non-allies. I don’t think the same can be said for the current government of Israel.

Also 42 countries voted earlier in the month to recognise Palestine - Ireland Spain and Norway are just the first ones to actually do so.

Also, when we’re talking about human behaviour oppression breeds violence and terrorism - when you have an agreed democratic and diplomatic process there is far less scope for that. So, that is a path to anti-extremism.

Apart from when it comes to Jewish people and women and their own people one could argue.

Its lovely that you have such huge faith in the government of Ireland. Many don't.

Democracy is not the only way. As i wrote previously the ME is different. You cannot impose 'western' culture on the ME. They clearly have their own governance structures. It has a different culture. To do so, as i said, is somewhat arrogant and patronising.

The view that the government of Ireland has the answers is arrogant and patronising and misguided in my view. Again Ireland is very biased on this issue.

Original poster

pandarific · 22/05/2024 19:29

@lovelysoap the government of Ireland are very pro universal human rights - not rights for allies and no rights for non-allies. I don’t think the same can be said for the current government of Israel.

Also 42 countries voted earlier in the month to recognise Palestine - Ireland Spain and Norway are just the first ones to actually do so.

Also, when we’re talking about human behaviour oppression breeds violence and terrorism - when you have an agreed democratic and diplomatic process there is far less scope for that. So, that is a path to anti-extremism.

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PurpleChrayn · 22/05/2024 19:21

So who were all the civilians thronging the streets of Gaza when Shani Louk's broken body was paraded through?

lovelysoap · 22/05/2024 19:15

AgnesX · 22/05/2024 18:56

I wonder who is going to fund this proposed new state.

Edited

This is a really good question. Gaza received billions in aid. Most of it went to building terror infrastructure like tunnels and rockets for Hamas and some nice estates in Qatar for the leadership to live in and for them to become billionaires. No money for bomb shelters for ordinary Gazans....
Who will want to fund Gaza 2? People will only want to fund it if they know what it will not be used to fund terror again and a key question will be who provides security, who runs Gaza and what is the de-radicalisation plan?

Pollipops1 · 22/05/2024 19:10

That was why I said I don’t really understand the point of Ireland, Spain and Norway Announcement.

Pollipops1 · 22/05/2024 19:07

@lovelysoap apolgies . I meant most of the West see the two state option as the only solution.

AgnesX · 22/05/2024 18:56

I wonder who is going to fund this proposed new state.

lovelysoap · 22/05/2024 18:48

I don’t think that that’s necessarily true at all, at least not by the reaction I’ve seen today? Perhaps in the past, but not in the current unprecedented situation. Anyway, it’s fine to disagree with a two state solution as a proposed solution! that is why the peace process is a process of negotiation - Ireland can advise ‘we think you should do this’ until the cows come home but what is decided is down to the two neighbouring states. The point right now is to ensure justice, by ensuring both are recognised have equal legal footing, and, like, a proper government so they can actually negotiate.

I know of no country in the ME who want a 2 state solution (possibly Iran and arguably proxy Qatar), with good reason. Including Palestinians. Democracy is not a culture within the middle east. That's very 'western'. Israel is the only democracy in the middle east. Why do you think you can tell Palestinians they need to put together a democratic state and why does Ireland think it has that right? Bizarre. Ireland have been woeful in the north and are very pro palestinian so really would not be ideal negotiating partners for any middle east peace deal They are far from neutral. Do they think they can do better than all the countries in the middle east? Jeez.

I know Micheal Martin has been working with a lot of the Arab states in the ME for the entirety of the conflict - this isn’t a snap decision, there’s been a lot of thought gone into it

What snap decision has Ireland made for the people in the middle east?

Bunnyasmyname · 22/05/2024 18:48

@lovelysoap has made some excellent posts.
It is well documented that palestinians they don't want a two state solution.

Many people think that religion is not the main reason for the conflict. It is more national identity and land than religion.

Israel is pretty much a secular country anyway.

Original poster

pandarific · 22/05/2024 18:29

@lovelysoap I disagree with a two state solution. So do the PA, Hamas and the vast majority of people who identify as being palestinian. They have all always been consistent about that.
I find it so arrogant that people think that is what they want and they will be told what they want and what to do, its patronising. People in the middle east are not stupid, far from it, they have a much deeper understanding of what is going on than we do. Listen to palestinians they don't want a two state solution never have, that's why they reject it.

I don’t think that that’s necessarily true at all, at least not by the reaction I’ve seen today? Perhaps in the past, but not in the current unprecedented situation. Anyway, it’s fine to disagree with a two state solution as a proposed solution! that is why the peace process is a process of negotiation - Ireland can advise ‘we think you should do this’ until the cows come home but what is decided is down to the two neighbouring states. The point right now is to ensure justice, by ensuring both are recognised have equal legal footing, and, like, a proper government so they can actually negotiate.

I know Micheal Martin has been working with a lot of the Arab states in the ME for the entirety of the conflict - this isn’t a snap decision, there’s been a lot of thought gone into it.

Are you Palestinian @lovelysoap ? Or Jewish? I don’t mean that in an agressive way, I would like to understand your perspective better.

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UntiltheGirl · 22/05/2024 18:17

Nctodayjan24 · 22/05/2024 17:28

Op YANBU for your op. Completely agree with you (as an Irish woman)

However yabu to have any thread like this in AIBU . Mumsnet is not the most sympathetic to the Irish on the whole. Many here think we should stay in our box and remember our place and like to mansplain our history to us.

I think you mean 'Britsplain'.

lovelysoap · 22/05/2024 18:15

Pollipops1 · 22/05/2024 18:13

I don’t really understand this. Most people already agree in a two state solution but who is going to implement that? Yes Hamas are likely in power by force but how will there be another leadership?

Who are you talking about when you say 'most people'. Not one country in the middle east wants a two state solution.
Maybe Iran so they can have another terror state proxy as they had with Gaza.

lovelysoap · 22/05/2024 18:13

pandarific · 22/05/2024 17:58

@lovelysoap again all of the study is only talking about Gaza and the West Bank, not all of Palestine. And the point of this thread is about the recognition of a state.

I think you are in denial about how much Palestinians support Hamas and hate Israelis and Jewish people.

I promise that I am not. I am very very well aware that generational violence has sowed an immense amount of hate. However… unless a peace process is embarked on, then that hate remains and nothing changes and we remain in the worst of all worlds, dominated by hatred, killing and division between neighbouring peoples.

I posted the title of the thread, a direct quote from the Irish Taoiseach this AM on live tv where he said ‘We see Hamas as an illegal and disgusting terrorism organisation’ so as to be clear that this move is nothing to do with Hamas, and everything to do with the Palestinian nation, that those two things are not one and the same and treating them as if they are is wild.

This is a move to corroborate universal human rights and move to a viable political solution with respect and understanding on both sides of the conflict, not to legitimise killing.

Where else is this 'palestine' you speak of. Do you mean Jordan?
I disagree with a two state solution. So do the PA, Hamas and the vast majority of people who identify as being palestinian. They have all always been consistent about that.
I find it so arrogant that people think that is what they want and they will be told what they want and what to do, its patronising. People in the middle east are not stupid, far from it, they have a much deeper understanding of what is going on than we do. Listen to palestinians they don't want a two state solution never have, that's why they reject it.
Gaza was a self governing state. Look how that went. It was built into a huge terror state with the sole purpose of attacking Israel.
Israel have agreed and proposed two state solution before but i think they would be mad to do that whilst the population is so radicalised.
I think it is rather arrogant to think that Ireland has a jot of influence over events in the middle east.

Pollipops1 · 22/05/2024 18:13

I don’t really understand this. Most people already agree in a two state solution but who is going to implement that? Yes Hamas are likely in power by force but how will there be another leadership?

Glitterybee · 22/05/2024 18:09

Assuming that most people on this forum are British I wouldn’t expect a balanced view here.

Original poster

pandarific · 22/05/2024 18:06

@blackcherryconserve I wouldn’t be in any way an authority on that I’m afraid! I know it’s contested. My point was just that the Palestinian people do not equal Hamas.

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Original poster

pandarific · 22/05/2024 17:58

@lovelysoap again all of the study is only talking about Gaza and the West Bank, not all of Palestine. And the point of this thread is about the recognition of a state.

I think you are in denial about how much Palestinians support Hamas and hate Israelis and Jewish people.

I promise that I am not. I am very very well aware that generational violence has sowed an immense amount of hate. However… unless a peace process is embarked on, then that hate remains and nothing changes and we remain in the worst of all worlds, dominated by hatred, killing and division between neighbouring peoples.

I posted the title of the thread, a direct quote from the Irish Taoiseach this AM on live tv where he said ‘We see Hamas as an illegal and disgusting terrorism organisation’ so as to be clear that this move is nothing to do with Hamas, and everything to do with the Palestinian nation, that those two things are not one and the same and treating them as if they are is wild.

This is a move to corroborate universal human rights and move to a viable political solution with respect and understanding on both sides of the conflict, not to legitimise killing.

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Diddleyeyeeye · 22/05/2024 17:55

Peace has to start somewhere and a two state solution has to start somewhere. Hamas are disgusting. Israel’s retaliation is disgusting. Two separate countries developing and learning over time how to get along is the only realistic answer to this now.

blackcherryconserve · 22/05/2024 17:53

pandarific 'Palestine isn't solely Gaza and the West Bank'.
Exactly where is Palestine if not those areas?

lovelysoap · 22/05/2024 17:35

pandarific · 22/05/2024 17:20

@lovelysoap the study you shared says support for Hamas is declining? And also, it focused on Gaza and the West Bank… Palestine isn’t solely those two areas?

Again, Hamas being in power is not the result of a democracy, because there isn’t one in any real sense of the world. If paramilitaries control the area you live it’s not exactly wise for your longevity and that of your family to go against them.

Do you really seek to convince us that you can see into the hearts and minds of millions of Palestinians and assume that ‘they’ are all Hamas supporters? Would you have said that Irish catholics during the troubles (‘they?’) are IRA supporters? I would like you to examine that please.

You said it was a wild claim to say that most palestinians support Hamas but according to palestinians it is c.70%, that's most. It is declining by 1% so arguably no decline at all and still very high.

The poll shows that Hamas would win an election now so that would be the result of democracy. I think you are in denial about how much Palestinians support Hamas and hate Israelis and Jewish people. About 5 million of people who identify as palestinian live in the west bank and Gaza so that is by far most of them.

I have in no way used my own opinions i am listening to a palestinian survey that seems to be widely respected.

I find it hard to compare the troubles to the situation in Gaza. Hamas is a branch of the MB and a proxy of Iran, it is very wealthy and worldwide organisation. The IRA obviously differ in many ways and yes they were well supported by irish catholics as were loyalist paramilitaries by their communities and the British army by British people. I see the two conflicts as very very different and probably for another thread.