To expect school to constantly supervise a violent child?

Just to give you the other side. My autistic son was a Bill in year r and 1. The children in his class suffered, he suffered and we as a family suffered. It was horrible and I was in the school constantly to help calm him down and begging slt to provide him with more support, apply for an ehcp, keep him in at break and lunch etc. He asked to stay in at breaks too as he knew he couldn’t handle the noise. The school even said he would deliberately misbehave before breaks to try and get kept in as a punishment. They wouldn’t allow this though until it was put in his ehcp.

I had to apply for an EHCP myself, spend a fortune on private reports to help us understand what environment he needs and take the SEN department to tribunal as even after he had his ehcp in year 2 they couldn’t find him a school place for him and left him in mainstream despite admitting it wasn’t suitable.

It isn’t putting the 1 SEN child’s needs ahead of all the other children. Their needs are also being neglected too or they wouldn’t be behaving that way. My son hasn’t had a violent incident in over 2 years since he got the right support. He’s back to his happy self. It’s the system that’s letting all our children down. It took me 3 years of fighting to get the right support in place and I was distraught for him and all the children in his class.

I completely understand parents being upset by the impact this has on their children who get caught in the crossfire. But I just wanted to share that it isn’t SEN parents not caring or bothering to get their child the right support. It’s an absolute battle and it’s the system that is letting the children down. I know many SEN parents who have experienced the same. This is the norm.

An EHCP is a legal document if it states that a child needs to have a 1:1 full time that needs to happen otherwise the school are breaking the law ,I know it doesn't need ti be the same person at times.

It’s 20 weeks from when the agreement is given.

No, it is 20 weeks for the EHNCA request. It is not from the agreement to assess or agree to issue.

Not all systems or LA would accept logs from nursery

Such a blanket policy would be unlawful. A school making a request for e.g. a reception child absolutely can use information from nursery. LAs should consider all evidence and SENDIST would consider all evidence.

If he is given a 1-1, that doesnt mean he has a separate worker with him all the hours of the day in school.

If a full time 1:1 is detailed, specified and quantified in F it absolutely can mean someone with the child all day. If it includes break and lunch it would typically be more than one person but it can mean someone with providing 1:1 at all times. SEP detailed, specified and quantified in F is a legal requirement and can be enforced.

Its 20 weeks from when the agreement is given.

Not all systems or LA would accept logs from nursery

You say a child can be funded a full time 1-1, that does not mean an individual person allocated to that child on their own all day. The school gets some extra funding yes, it goes into their overall pot, its never enough to fund a specific worker for one child only.

Even if you could get someone.

That was the point of my previous post about inclusivity. We have as a society decided that inclusivity is a goal above and beyond the good of the group.

The groups needs as a majority are seen as not worthy, the individuals needs must take precedent.

Society signed up to this, the popular narrative is that individualism, being your true self, being 'special' and different is all important and must be met by the majority. Thats what I mean by 'everyone' even though Im not in that group myself and neither are many others!

It should take 20 weeks yes I know that's not usually the reality
A child can be funded for a full time 1:1
Is there not reports from nursery etc
My son is 14 now and his school nursery started the ball rolling ,he started reception in a special school, with a statement as it was then

If the principle of "For the Greater Good" was accepted, it would be much better.
If a teacher was able to say,

'Look, there are thirty children in my class and one of them is violent and making it difficult for me to teach and impossible for the others to learn. This one child takes up most of my time, depriving the other children. If this one child was removed-in extremis let them stay at home- it will be better for the other 29. One child's "right" to be included cannot trump the right of the other 29. The welfare of the majority must prevail."

If a teacher could say that, be listened to and her views acted upon-the class would be a happier, more productive place. At the moment, one child is allowed to blight the future of the others and that can't be right or fair.

Unfortunately, it seems that a lot of bad and violent behaviour is often linked to a diagnosis of some sort, which means that instead of being disciplined or excluded, many of these out of control children are allowed to make the lives of pupils and staff misery because of their right to be included.

I long for the day when bad behaviour doesn't come with a label which means they offender never has to answer for their actions while the rest of the class, staff included, are expected to put up with their daily lives being made a misery.

Not all bad behaviour is a condition although it seems a sin to state this.

Firstly it takes a long time, the process is slow, so the school maybe has already applied and are waiting to determine of the LA will agree to an assessment. But secondly sometimes there isnt enough evidence, the poster says he has been at the school for 4 weeks, thats not enough logs and reports and stats to use in an EHCP, we are regularly told schools need a couple of terms in order to gather the evidence in order to put it in and then let the process take its course

How quickly do you think these things happen?

And when he does get his EHCP, perhaps on the basis of SEMH, perhaps he has a formal diagnosis of something we dont know, what difference do you think that will make? If he is given a 1-1, that doesnt mean he has a separate worker with him all the hours of the day in school.

It's not one size fits all though particularly if the child is academically able .

Why are the school not applying for sn EHCP for him?

Also to add that we now have far more children that have been diagnosed with sen. That would have been say 20 years ago.

I have never been an advocator for high level SEN children in mainstream school, but there was a huge drive for that, driven mostly by parents who didnt want their children to be excluded from mainstream provision, who felt that society and schools should have strategies and methods to ensure their child wasnt shunted off and seen as different.
The govenments of the day were keen for this too, means they didnt have to invest in SEN provision, which is now dire, few and far between.

You'll read it on threads on here many a time.

Many children with a number of different disorders come with dysegulation to the degree that they lash out, are violent, are uncontrollable. The two often come hand in hand, not always, but often

Schools and other parents are expected to manage this and it doesnt work in my view.

I think that yes many parents with children with sen do what them to attend mainstream and want them to fit in with the others, but it's not always best for that child, or the other children.
There does need to be more funding into this schools which have more staff and facilities for children with sen needs.
But sometimes it's down to the parents insisting they go to mainstream, which isn't always the best choice, I have a friend like this her child was offered a place at a Forrest school, she decided mainstream and he's struggling badly , it's stressful for her and her child.

I completely understand how frustrating this must be for teachers to have to follow, and not being able to tell others why. I genuinely feel like too much is expected of teachers and all school staff, I pulled out of training to become a TA after realising how much abuse and absolute nonsense has to be put up with.
I was actually friends with Bill's mum, which made the situation more complicated, in this case there was no ehcp, in fact I believe the school were handling Bill's situation badly aswell. Parents were struggling, ss involvement, pushing for an ASD assessment and the school pushed back against this stating that they saw no traits.
My other dc has an ASD diagnosis and they were also difficult with that, wouldn't allow ear defense, would force them into situations that would result in melt downs, like singing in a Xmas assembly, my dc had a melt down and panic attack in front of every parent and teacher, nobody removed him until me and his dad had enough and took him off stage ourselves.
I firmly believe that children with SEN can do well in a mainstream school, but there are cases where more violent children, whether SEN or not should not be able to attend. I know there aren't enough spaces in special schools, I know there is a lack of teachers in general and I have no solution to offer. But it's unfair that one student can ruin the learning experience of 30 others. It's also unfair on teachers who are expected to pick up the slack.
It's a shameful situation and at this point the system feels broken for parents and teaching staff alike.
I will say the school my dc currently attend is incredible, it shows how a school should be, teachers are respected by parents, parents are informed of even small incidents and you can always set up meetings to talk these through. The pupils are happy, there is a SLC on site, a very good SENCO, a very involved head, it's genuinely amazing.

Who is "everyone"? Because I don't know many people who want violent and uncontrollable children in mainstream.

Is there a point at which a school says we can not take said child?

As others have said this is the great problem with inclusivity.

Some disorders do not respond to consequences and sanctions, they need low demand parenting, so children with these types of disorders wouldnt have sanctions or punishments or consequences applied, they're not 'told off'

Thats fine, but it needs to be within a context that means its safe for others to be around them, so not living in a household where they beat up their siblings etc, not being in a school where they are beating up their school mates.

Schools cant manage that, but are expected to.

But everyone wanted for children with SEN to be included in mainstream provisions so now everyone has what they wanted.

Thank you x

When I started teaching in the 70s headteachers could refuse to have violent children in school. Instant exclusion. It's time that was brought back and this would force the LEA to provide another more adequate school or pay for a one to one.

No child should go to school afraid of another.

Wr have a 'Bill' who has an EHCP (which is legally binding) stipulating he must not be punished in any way.His stupid parent has told him this snd he brags about it and completely takes the piss.I am sure the parents think the school is being completely ineffective with him and it is annoying because we obviously can't tell them why he is allowed go get away with everything.

https://forestschoolassociation.org/what-is-forest-school/

We had a Bill in a previous school. It was handled awfully by the school, it resulted in me pulling both my children out of that school and starting them somewhere else. I would suggest perusing the schools policies, especially anti bullying and safe guarding policies, I quoted these constantly and it turns out the teacher hadn't been following ANY of the procedures.
At that point I knew it was a losing battle, I pulled my kids, registered a complaint against that teacher.
The Bill was strangling, kicking, punching, saying terrible things, all towards my child. I have heard that once we left he moved on to another child in the class and not much was done.
In my case it was 100% a failure on the schools behalf.
It took my child over a year to gain back some confidence, and also a long time for them to differentiate the difference between "playful" hurts and bullying, as in his mind they were the same thing. So a lot of unravelling for us and his new school to do. My child and Bill were both year 1 at the time, so very small children who should have been protected.

Whats forest school?

Im not sure why people are talking about 1-1 in any case, 1-1 doesnt actually mean what it sounds like it should mean, we have many children in schools with 1-1, but it doesnt mean they have a 1-1, they simply cant afford that and cant get the staff in anyway