To think nurseries are not safe for young babies

Agree.

I hate it when posters do this. People are entitled to join in with a debate and to express their opinion. It just seems really nasty to go searching through their mumsnet history to try and discredit them. Not cool.

Also @Jellycats4life isn't it ironic that you are so very forgiving on another thread where a mother basically screamed, shouted and swore at her child, not unlike Genevieve's nursery worker..but that's ok apparently because she's a stay at home mum right and baby in your words 'wont remember'?! You can't have it both ways. No child deserves to be treated like that by anyone regardless of what they did and whether the carer or parent is tired, Ill or genuinely just a crap person.

Yes I agree, to use your phrase people do 'talk shite about attachment'. It's mainly psychobabble rubbish and will be likely replaced with new theories and new terminology in a few years. You also missed my point. Poster I responded to said if a baby doesn't cry when separated from mum hey are not properly attached??! So by definition only one who screams and cries is..?! I am not talking about a 9 month old infant you are. What happened to Genevieve is terrible, reprehensible, and a very sad isolated incident, no one will deny that. But the title of he thread is "nurseries are not safe for young babies". That is what I take issue with because the over whelming majority of cases prove this not to be true. Out of interest @Jellycats4life , would you say planes are not a safe method of transport because there has been more than one death in plane crashes? Have you or your children ever been on a plane? I'm trying to demonstrate here perception of risk. You cannot say all nurseries are bad based on two very sad and awful but isolated incidences. That is lack of nuance. That's like saying all nurses are baby killers based on the sole evidence of Lucy Letby...or me saying well 30 children this year alone have died from accidents in the home when a SAHM was present, therefore being a SAHM is not good for children and too risky..do you see? Also you have proved you have no idea if you think babies are plonked directly into a 'noisy nursery environment'? There are settling in sessions over many weeks starting with a few hours, dedicated key workers, baby rooms with only a few kids all similar age, apps where you can check in on your son/daughter. Any issues and the process is slowed and reviewed. This has been my experience at two different nurseries and I have not experienced any problems. Granted not all nurseries are this good so instead of denigrating other parents choices along with some others on this thread and OP, how about you lobby the government to get all nurseries up to standard? Or perhaps you are only on here to be goady and justify your own stay at home choices by simple saying all nurseries are terrible eh?

She wasn't referring to Genevieve. I posted further up to say my daughter was very happy to go into nursery without any tears or tantrums from day 1- all children are different, but mine loved having the social interaction with other children- and freshgreenmintleaves told me that this showed my child wasn't sufficiently attached to me 😂The truth was that she was secure enough to know I was coming back and also had a lovely time at nursery.

The situation with Genevieve was entirely different. Of course the poor baby was miserable. :(

You rather missed my point. The poster I responded to said a child who waved good bye to mum just fine no tears was not attached. I countered with so only a child who kicks and screams is properly attached? I was pointing out how ridiculous either argument is as both are extremes. Do keep up

Exactly @Frenchielondon and @WhiteLily1 other countries have been much much quicker on the uptake but as usual in Britain snobbery and backwards thinking prevails.

People don’t half talk shite when it comes to “attachment” and “attachment style”… dear god.

We are talking about a nine month old infant. You think there’s something wrong with a baby who isn’t settling in at nursery (the day she died was only her 8th session), away from her mother/father/home environment for the first time? That response is to be pathologised now, is it?

You think all babies of that age should be totally OK with being plonked into a busy, noisy, alien environment?

Add in being cared for by a cold hearted stranger who berates you for only napping for 20 minutes, chanting “Genevieve go home” and “You’re driving me bananas”.

I can hardly blame the poor little mite for being so distressed.

Lol heaven knows how my youngest grandson classifies on attachment then. Kicked and screamed the first week in playgroup, since week 2 waved DD goodbye and ran in happily. Has he suddenly lost his attachment to his mother?

Exactly my point. If you have embarrassing amounts of cash hanging around and financial independence then more power to you if you want to be at home and presumably you chose to continue that once your child was in school. That's your privilege. Who wouldn't want a life of beauty appointments, gym days and coffee mornings rather than working?! Let's be honest if we won the lottery, most of us male or female might choose not to work unless we were fortunate enough to work in our passion.

Not really the situation for most of us though and less still as costs of living rise. If you are beholden to another person and financially dependent on them, it's your choice but I don't believe that is great for parent or child. It creates inequality and all too often falls apart when one party doesn't hold up there end of the deal or resentment builds. Holding up nurseries as evil and the reason why parents should give up everything they have worked and been educated for is pure excuse in my mind and sends us back to the 1950s when women were unpaid servants and nannies in the home. Messy divorces leaving mothers destitute are most probably far far far worse for a child than attending a nursery for 4 years early on until school starts.

It's the relentless fear mongering and guilt tripping such as on this thread which keeps women feeling they must stay at home or else their child will be permanently damaged/not succeed. This is absolute rubbish to keep the status quo.

"But it doesn’t belie the fact that nurseries are not the most optimal place for the social, emotional and cognitive development of babies and toddlers. This is rooted in research.)"

@freshgreenmintleaves this is not fact, this is still your opinion based presumably on some very limited research, as a scientist myself I'm pretty good at sorting fact from fiction.

Where is your evidence? Show me the highly respected and wide scale studies consistently concluding all children attending nurseries for part of the day are psychologically damaged/disadvantaged and nurseries should be shut down? I just don't buy it.

It is perfectly normal/usual for a baby/toddler to be distressed when apart from their primary caregiver during a first settling-in session at a nursery. It is more usual to be, than not.

Both my DH and I wanted a stay-at-home parent at home during our DC’s most formative years. For us, it was non-negotiable. Endless craft sessions and swimming lessons in a private pool aren’t really necessary, and don’t make up for having a loving, invested parent at home during those early years. I wanted to stay at home with my baby/toddler because nobody else could have, or would have, been able to provide the love, attention and care that I was able to provide him. (I also realise that I speak from a privileged position because not everybody has the means to have a stay-at-home parent. People have got to do what they’ve got to do to pay the bills, mortgage, and put food on the table. But it doesn’t belie the fact that nurseries are not the most optimal place for the social, emotional and cognitive development of babies and toddlers. This is rooted in research.)

Thank you for your financial advice. Just before my son was born, we paid off the mortgage on our first house. We lived off DH’s income, and used mine to overpay. We still own that property and plan to pass it on to our DS. Hopefully, starting off in a strong financial position in his 20’s will give him and his partner the opportunity and choice to stay at home to provide care for their DC during those crucial, formative early years.

Then you don’t understand attachment.

Attachment doesn’t mean to just one person - it means through the example you set your child has a positive view of people and feels secure in being around them.

When children are adopted, those who had happy lives with their previous caregiver settle much more easily than those who were neglected who often struggle as they’ve been taught people are bad and will abuse them.

This is such a mad thing to say. My DD has been incredibly sociable since she was a baby, loves spending time with other kids, ran into nursery, school, playdates, parties. She's also very securely attached to us, and is a very well adjusted and emotionally intelligent 10 year old. Clingy child does not equal secure attachment!

In practice very few babies are in nursery before 9m.

I don't know what the answer is, maternity leave is now 12m so neither baby needed to be in nursery at such a young age, though I understand the pressure to get back to work

Presumably not paid at a higher rate for all that time though?

There are a small number of the wrong people in caring and healthcare jobs - how they get in and manage to stay in with cruel dismeanors is beyond me.

I don't know what the answer is, maternity leave is now 12m so neither baby needed to be in nursery at such a young age, though I understand the pressure to get back to work.

Both cases you mention @Luxell934 are tragic, the nursery worker who put a baby face down on a beanbag deserves a prison sentence, that was a senseless act and clearly would suffocate a baby.

Are nurseries safe? Yes in the main, but I have seen wrong ratios too, so there are risks and they need unannounced inspections.

So a child who screams and kicks and cries when separated from mum has a 'secure attachment' according to you? Wow. That sounds like an unhealthy attachment to me.

Yes they parallel play to begin with BUT they do learn from eachother and copy from a young age, anyone with a baby and older siblings will know this. Therefore they absolutely do get something from being with other children. Also my baby smiles at other children he sees when we are out shopping from his nursery, there is clear recognition compared to other random children so I find it hard to believe they don't get something from the interaction.

I think you are missing the point, this also happened with several children in a hospital (Lucy Letby), will you now not use hospitals in case for your child? There have also been abuse incidents in schools, will you not send your kids to school in case? These incidents are indeed absolutely awful but perspective is needed.

I think a lot of posters are missing the point here.

”But most child deaths happen at home” albeit true, isn’t the issue.

The issue is that baby Genevieve’s parents had put her in the care of professionals, one of whom took an immediate dislike to her and killed her.

The issue is that we will never know the extent of low level mistreatment, neglect, cruelty and near misses that happen in nurseries nationwide, because the children can’t speak up for themselves.

You seem to miss the point that the child in nursery still has that bond with the parent who they will see morning and afternoon and weekends as a minimum. And they will also have a key caregiver assigned to them. It takes a village to raise a child. My youngest son has an excellent key worker, he smiles at her and holds his arms for a cuddle just as he does for me. She also has two children slightly older who are in the same nursery as she works. I pay a lot for this nursery, it has a forest school and woods for walks, outdoor play area, an allotment they grow vegetables in, endless craft projects every day, swimming lessons in a private pool...I couldn't provide that at home.

Doubtless not all nurseries are equal and we shopped around and went for the very best we could afford. But honestly when people talk about nurseries on here it sounds like they are talking about prisons, my sons nursery is more like a luxury hotel! Incidentally my eldest went to nursery from 7 months 3 days a week, he's top of his class, despite being one of only two who went to nursery from a young age and now goes to wrap around care. No issues so far and pretty securely attached so not sure when we should expect him to turn into the maladjusted child/adult? I had so much guilt in the beginning especially with conflicting studies but honestly it wasn't needed. If they start young I think it becomes their new normal and far less issues than being attached to mum at the hip in the toddler years then trying to go to nursery or day care later.
My eldest adjusted to school really easily whereas those who had never been separated from mum much really struggled and had a much more traumatic time, how much damage must that have done when they are older and more aware? Noone questions men's decision to work do they? I'll guarantee that many of the SAHP are women, do their kids honestly have a rubbish relationship with dad because he isn't there all the time? It fits some peoples narrative to say nursery is awful and damaging as it confirms their decision to stay at home. A lot of the SAHP I see hated their jobs and were just looking for an excuse to give it up. "Ooooh I couldn't possibley put my child in nursery it's so damaging, I'm selflessly sacrificing my career for little Jimmy". Haha Ok then I believe you..But show me the credible properly designed research saying all kids who've gone to nursery are damaged and doing worse than those with SAHP? Also so many SAHP on here forced to stay with abusive partners because they have no financial independence and yet no recognition of how damaging this is for their kids. It breaks my heart when you see the threads...my partner's cheating etc what can I do I have no money, haven't had a job for years career lost, CV screwed etc, he's hidden all the family money or blown it etc etc.

Brutally, if you have your own money and can afford to be a SAHP then fine but if you are relying on your partner to fund your lifestyle and to stay at home, I would think very very carefully about that decision and your future stability and happiness of your family. It creates a massive imbalance and you could pay for it later..the stats say 1:2 marriages end in divorce after all, 50 percent isn't great odds. Just look at all the many threads on the relationships board with financially dependent women up the creek which absolutely speak for themselves!

I think they gravitate towards other children and their activities. It’s not unusual. Even if they aren’t playing with each other.

My eldest also really loved the company of other children from shortly over a year. I wouldn't say it's that unusual.

I agree having studied child development.

Piaget’s child development theory supports this. Children are egocentric until about the age of two.

Between age 2-7
Furthermore, the child is egocentric; he assumes that other people see the world as he does. This has been shown in the three mountains study.
As the preoperational stage develops, egocentrism declines, and children begin to enjoy the participation of another child in their games, and let’s pretend play becomes more important.

https://www.simplypsychology.org/piaget.html