To think nurseries are not safe for young babies

To be honest perhaps all parents SHOULD go on a parenting course because it's definitely needed in many cases! Those instincts have dried up in some. You say the parent should know best but clearly the amount of children in care or with behavioural issues shows that not to be the case... but this is a separate issue. In my view nursery workers should absolutely be as well trained as a nurse.. in fairness though it is not as complex as a nurse's role. But it certainly should be a respected career path. "And the fact that we're not formally trained doesn't make use less trustworthy than a nursery worker" no but you may not be as up to date as you think you are on current parenting initiatives/knowledge as those at a good nursery should be. "We have parental instincts and, most importantly, we love our own children and prioritise what's best for them". Of course and every good parent does regardless of if their child goes to nursery or is looked after 24/7 by their parent at the start. Are you saying that a teacher or nursery worker doesn't like or care for what's best for your child? Will or do you send your child to school and are you happy they are safe and well cared for there? Why would that be different for nursery for you? SOME of the SAHP on here have been sniffy about nursery workers/nurseries in general. That's what I was referring to.

It's not free if I have to give up my job to do it.

I think that a lot of people are desperate to buy into the false narrative that because they’re paying for something, in some cases thousands of £s a month in nursery fees, that the provision therefore has to be better than something that is free (care at home by a stay-at-home parent). Hence all the peddling of false myths. Nursery workers are “trained professionals.” Babies and children need “socialisation” and they need to make “friends” so are better off in nurseries than at home with a nurturing caregiver. Nurseries are more stimulating environments than a home environment because the nursery workers know how to set out a few paintbrushes and paint, or set up a few activities with playdough.

A nursery worker is no way near as thoroughly trained as a doctor or nurse... The analogy doesn't work. We don't need to talk to a nursery worker to get basic advice on how to parent in the same way that we should talk to a doctor when we're sick. Otherwise we'd all have to go on year-long courses before having babies. This would suggest that the state or an institution somehow owns your child, know what's best for them more than you do as their parent and can be trusted to look out for them better than you.
First and foremost, the parent should know what is best for their own child. Childcare is a great thing to fall back on when you need it - e.g. if you work, but to suggest it's somehow better for a child to be looked after by trained strangers than its own parents is really strange and suggests a worrying lack of confidence in your ability to just meet your child's day to day needs and love them.
And no, parents don't need to be "trained". And the fact that we're not formally trained doesn't make use less trustworthy than a nursery worker. We have parental instincts and, most importantly, we love our own children and prioritise what's best for them.

The idea that a childcare worker is better equipped to look after a child than the child's OWN PARENT (apart from in exceptional cases) is just bizzarre.

All the SAHPs I have seen aren't sniffy about nursery. They just object to people saying silly things like this.

Exactly!! Parents don't get training. But we expect nursery workers to. I'd actually argue that the nursery workers are better trained than me as a parent as they've taught me tricks about potty training, napping etc which even after having one child I still hadn't learned! And I read a lot of parenting books and blogs first time around.The arrogance of some SAHP! Also I honestly haven't seen a nursery in my area choc full of school leavers as it wouldn't function very well, there is a good mix of mainly 25-35 year olds who are parents themselves with their kids in the same nursery and women nearing retirement age who have grandchildren and yes a few younger ones, I mean everyone has to learn? You going to refuse treatment from a junior doctor or nurse? What age do you class someone as being competent to look after your child? Some dad's in their 40s are still not competent and I'd trust a school leaver over them! I'd love better training and more respect for nursery workers and this as a career. Let's get consistency to ensure all nurseries are excellent and well respected. Its abundantly clear many SAHP are extremely sniffly about nursery workers so clearly a mindset which needs changing. Nannies don't get the same level of sniffy snobbery, wonder why?

I'm not being disingenuous here, but genuinely curious. How was childcare so much better under Labour? Did the Tories lower the level of qualifications required for nursery workers?
I know the quality has decreased since the free hours were brought in (which was not to do with council cuts, quite the opposite).

Those comments I made are nothing to do with nurseries actually. Just pointing out not everyone gives birth ( or becomes a father) and automatically is so in love with their kid they know exactly how to care for it. If that was true why are there so many bloody women moaning their husbands are not able to look after the kids

And as I explained earlier in the thread, without the regular, independent support and accountability that used to be in place. Thanks Tory government for your council budget cuts.

(While abusive parents are the exception, it does not seem that poor nurseries are the exception, unfortunately. The nature of how they are run means that the children are highly to be cared for by inexperienced staff with inadequate training).

Basically, you can't make or discuss major policy based on anecdotes and exceptions. We need to be drawing on the actual data. Otherwise, we'd remove all children from their parents at birth because "some parents are abusive", or ban adoption because "biological parents care more". This is why safeguarding exists, to provide a safety net for those experiencing exceptions to the norm.

I've noticed people using a lot of exceptions ("not all parents love their babies", "if biology means parents care more for their children, what about adoptive parents?" etc) and personal anecdotes to argue in favour of nurseries, which isn't a sound basis for assessing the quality of institutional childcare and how it benefits children compared to being at home. There's already extensive research on the best environments for child development and attachment - we don't need to scrape the barrel like this.

”Besides though you may well love them it doesn't mean you have the slightest idea how to look after them”

Of course you know how to look after them. It’s the most natural thing in the world; otherwise we would have died out as a species a long time ago. And It’s both instinctual and learned (from watching mother, father, grandmother, adoptive parent take care, play and interact with baby). It’s only when that natural bonding/ attachment process has been disrupted though abusive and neglectful parents and home environments, or babies raised in orphanages and institutions (think of Romanian baby syndrome) that that ability is lost.

@MrsSunshine2b the reality is that many of these school leavers are working in nurseries because they didn't get the grades to continue in further education and it's a low skilled job they can easily get. It's nothing to do with being invested in babies.

Parents don't necessarily love their babies from point of birth though. I've heard of some people getting this " rush of love" immediately, other people the live grows over time

Besides though you may well love them it doesn't mean you have the slightest idea how to look after them

Also on that note . If it's biology are you saying adoptive parents don't love or have " innate" caring skills for their babies?

The point is it doesn't matter how many positive anecdotes exist. It's the fact that there are any at all from staff or ex staff highlighting concerns.

This is simply naive.

So you can work in a supermarket for the same pay and half the work. Or McDonalds, or a pub or any other minimum wage job- the vast majority don't require the energy and hard work that nursery workers put in. I know, because I've done all of the above.

I can only speak from personal experience..Many have adhd and or mild learning disabilities and work in early years because they were unable to attend school settings and can’t/won’t take GCSEs. I know as I send them for work experience as part of my job. There are lots of course who adore babies and children alongside that too. Not trying to make anyone feel bad I used nurseries myself, but I know it’s not just a vocation.

Yes, it probably is the majority- I never said otherwise.

I agree that it won't be 100% but I'd say the majority.

Because the nursery job was the first job which came up? Or because they didn't get the job in a supermarket, so had to apply elsewhere? Or because they thought it would be more fun than working in a retirement home?

Obviously many of them will genuinely want to work in a nursery over other jobs, but I don't think it's realistic to say that is the case for 100% of people who work in nurseries.

Well, exactly. So if they aren't interested in children, why go with the nursery option?

Of course they're not in it for the money, but the vast majority of jobs which are available to people who have left school with few qualifications are paid just as badly as working in a nursery.

They certainly aren't in it for the money. The ones at my son's nursery (only one is a school leaver and she's there once a week because she's at College the rest of the time) are all incredibly passionate about early years education and children.

Some of these school leavers will be choosing to work in nurseries because they have left school with very few qualifications and so they are extremely limited in what jobs they can be hired for.

I don't think you can assume that working in a nursery is a vocation for everyone who works there, or even the vast majority.