To think nurseries are not safe for young babies

But you think it's ok to slate excellent nurseries?

I know what I am talking about - I have had experience of both, which I have related here.

Where I live, most CMs are also parents. They serve more than one school and they drive.

My witch CM had children from 2 schools but she preferred the school my kids weren't at, and she regularly said so. She was dropping off and picking up from 2 different nursery schools and 2 different schools with varying times, and collecting from both at 2pm and 3pm so that the kids had to wait for her.

She left a little boy out in the garden and wouldn't let him come in to use the toilet so the child wet himself.

She told my two that they couldn't do any afterschool activities because she was "too tired" to pick them up. She picked them up one day from school with her DH, handed them chicken dippers in tinfoil with no drink, and put them in the car to go with her DD to choose a formal dress. My kids had to sit in the car and they were so late back that they missed their swimming lesson and I was frantic.

A school mum died suddenly and my kids were very close to her as she had children in both of their classes. She hated that they liked to chat to her after school. She called me in work and callously said, "you need to come and get these children because that [nationality] woman died and they're crying". I was friendly with the mum as well and it was such a horrible shock and the way the news was delivered too! The mum was only 37 and left three young children.

There was a heatwave in the summer and she promised to take the kids to the beach. They went all suncreamed up with their cossies on and so excited! She announced she couldn't be bothered to go, but they could play under the sprinkler in the garden....

She had so few toys/activities for them that I had to send boxes with them of their own stuff!

She built a huge new sunroom at the back of her house but the children weren't allowed to go into it. Thank fuck I didn't have my babies with her but people did!!

The other twat favoured her youngest over my child of the same age. I never knew the half of it until after we'd left. They were treated like shit. She was nicer to my older two who were a different sex and the same sex as her kids. My child was getting put on time out regularly.

CM was shagging my married neighbour and got pregnant by him, and broke up their marriage. Didn't tell me she was pregnant until I challenged her one day - kept her coat zipped up all the time. I knew because neighbour had told my DH. Neighbour was drug dealing as it turned out, got raided and jailed (we live in a very naice genteel neighbourhood!) I got my child out of that PDQ!!!

I finally lucked out on my third CM who was warm, motherly, did lots of activities like baking, took them out in the holidays and actually cared about her mindees.

Two cases too many!

paying a premium to expect legal ratio of 1:3 staffing is a reasonable ask

blaming staff shortages when paying for private childcare is not a reasonable excuse.

I don’t give a crap whether this is rare; it shouldn’t happen or ever happen again when you’re paying £70-£80 per day (or however much it is nowadays vs 5 years ago)

it’s ridiculous that anyone thinks “two” is an okay number for staff to treat children like this who are supposedly in their care.

I’m curious to know if the child was tearful at pick up. Mine always had red eyes, and on the verge of tears, despite them saying she had calmed down after I left, had naps, ate plenty, played happily.

I was always dubious and after 9 months of not settling in, I found a caring Childminder who was amazing in comparison (outings multiple times a day/ calm happy environment etc ) , child had never been happier to say goodbye on the second day. Also built lots of happy friendships with the other children (yes we were lucky as plenty Of parents/child prefer nurseries)

she was also 50% cheaper, sent photo updates throughout the day, lots of sensory activities and more opportunities to explore the outside world than stuck in a baby room, with maybe one trip or two in the small (same-old) outdoor baby area

You stay vigilant and carry right on. Vary your drop offs and pick-ups. Chat to other parents. Don't listen to the scaremongers. These tragedies could just as easily happen with a childminder - especially as they are one-to-one with their charges. Above all, don't worry!

All three of mine went to nursery as babies until 6, 4 and 4, and I had a really positive experience. Develop good relationships with the carers. Befriend them and take an interest in them. I remember the girl who was then in charge of the baby room and I hit it off so well that I used to go in and sit on the floor with her and chat. (I was usually one of the last parents to pick up because of my work location). I 100% trusted her and we are still in touch nearly 30 years later. Later when a childminding arrangement broke down, she minded my elder two at home for an academic year. She was brilliant.

My baby had reflux and this minder was so adept at catching her puke right back in the bowl lol - a skill I never mastered! Another of their carers was such a support when I was toilet training them (they were all frankly fucking awful to train!) - when she sadly moved on she said she had become so attached to my DC1 as they'd spent so much time together on the toilet training!! Still in touch and see her out and about.

Another of the minders (we are also still in touch) asked me for something, maybe sponsorship or something, can't remember, and I still remember her saying, "I knew I could ask you because you're one of the nicest parents"!

I had a great relationship with the owner too, although I did think sometimes she was quite hard on the staff - but it was in the interests of the children and the reputation of her business. I used to tell her that her fees were the best contraceptive I knew!

She dismissed one of the nursery managers once because she kept getting pregnant.... which was horrible and one thing I totally abhorred, and the girl won a settlement at IT - we had such a good relationship that she actually sent me a letter explaining what had happened and why she had gone.

Please don't let this thread upset you xx

I never understand the hatred for CMs on here

Notwithstanding that in any sector there are good & bad operators, childminder care is an ideal model. Its much lower cost than nurseries, meaning care can provided at better ratios while still providing a good income. It provides the ideal for young children of a single primary care giver. It requires the exact same EYFS as is delivered in a large nursery, and the same qualifications & DBS checks.

Where i live the childminders typically serve one school and do so on foot, with just a short walk at 8.30 & again at 3. Most childminders are parents themselves.

I never understand why anyone suggesting CMs might be better for younger babies is immediately slated as being against working mums?! Its still childcare, it just might be childcare that is slightly better for a baby than a large nursery.

Zero guilt here too.

Let go of the guilt and carry on doing what is best for your baby which is absolutely working to provide for them.

I don't work because I have to, I work because I want to so threads like this are able to roll off my back. It must be difficult to read when you feel like you have no choice.

I don't think that anyone would disagree that there are varying degrees of quality between nurseries. Just like there are between childminders. And just like there between parents. And that children are vastly different in their personalities with some being naturally introverted and some being naturally extroverted. The tricky thing is ensuring that every child is in the best setting for them.

It is not better for a child to stay at home with a parent who is struggling and finding parenting challenging, or who is lazy and isn't interested in interacting with their child and providing them with age-appropriate stimulation or taking them out. The question whether a poor quality noisy nursery setting is better for that child is debatable. Equally all the arguments for a home type of environment that a childminder can provide become moot if the childminder is a poor one with a low level of education and no interest in child development or providing an interesting experience for the child, even if the child gets a few more hugs there than they might at home from severely depressed or stressed parent. An excellent nursery with good staffing ratios would indeed be even better for them. But not all parents could afford to send their child to excellent nurseries, or get them there on public transport etc, and we're heading into an abyss as far as the viability of many nurseries is concerned now that they are so underfunded.

I'd also question whether naturally introverted children with an excellent home life would thrive in an outstanding nursery day in day out for 10 hours a day as much as a naturally extroverted child would.. It doesn't matter how good the provision at the nursery may be, I'm not sure that being surrounded by lots of others and various members of staff, lots of full on energetic activities and noise, is the best place for naturally quiet children or those with sensory issues. It must be quite stressful for babies with those personality types. They'd be the ones more suited to the brilliant childminder with only a couple of other children to look after, and then maybe going to nursery for half days from the age of 3.

The issue is, how do you accurately assess whether a small baby is naturally more on the introvert or extrovert side? It's just so hard to know what to do for the best sometimes as a parent when you're looking for the right environment for YOUR child. I don't think it's as simple as a Nursery vs childminder vs SAHP argument. It's a bloody minefield.

Zero guilt - actually massively in the minuses!

Is your baby happy to be dropped off and happy when you pick up? Clean? Looking well cared for?
Can you vary the times you collect?
Are the staff consistent? Group size small?
What percentage of staff are qualified? Does everyone have first aid?
Ask lots of questions about how sleep and food times are managed.
If you have to work, you have to work - just ensure you have the best care set up you can.

Don't give it a second thought. You're doing the best thing for your family and I'm sure you child will be perfect safe and happy.

The death of the little girl at nursery should never have happened as it was a safe sleep issue.
There should never have been bean bags in a baby room at all, and babies should never have been put to sleep face down or swaddled.
The fact that the nursery nurse was unkind, or they were understaffed, was kind of irrelevant - an unkind or stressed carer would not have caused a death if it wasn't for the corporate failings of unsafe sleep policies.
If the baby was left to cry to sleep on her back in a sleeping bag in a cot by the unkind nursery nurse she'd still be alive.

The little boy who choked seems more like bad luck.

What we're really arguing about on this thread is whether nurseries are emotionally ideal or developmentally beneficial.
To be honest I think both of those things are a bit irrelevant. Nurseries are an economical and practical way to care for children.
They need to be physically safe, and not cause any emotional harm. There don't need to be any social or developmental benefits.

I wish I could unread this thread. My baby has been at nursery for 4 weeks now. He has to go in childcare, we cannot afford to pay the mortgage and bills without both parents working. What am I supposed to do?

For goodness sake... traffic accidents in a handful of nurseries doesn't make the whole system unsafe.

What a narrative to feed new parents. My kids were very well cared for from 1 year old at nursery. I had every faith in the staff who worked tirelessly.

At a fundamental level, are babies better of at home? Perhaps. But let's not discount other factors. Lots of parents need to go back to work to keep the roof over their head. Lots of parents WANT to go back to work for their own mental health. Lots of people don't have support from family.

You sound like an anxious new mum, perhaps struggling with the idea of going back to work? If you don't think nursery is for you, that's fine. But please don't spread fear on others.

"A normal mother? OMG!!!!

The 1950s wants you back.

I think that's a big age range when you have a number of children in the same room. I'd be concerned about the older ones hurting the tinies.

In our nursery, I recall DC2 was relatively slow to walk, around 15 months. They looked huge among the little babies, and of course when they moved to what our nursery called Wobblers, they were able to play in a more age appropriate way.

I can't remember now what the ratios were but I think maybe 8ish children with 3/4 staff depending on the time of day? It was never a concern for us.

I did, absolutely. I'm glad you're glad.

I am just trying to counteract some of the negativity you and others are spreading.

What difference does it make? A baby isn't going to know whether it's a family set up or not. My first shitty CM had teens who she absolutely prioritised. TG I didn't have my children with her when they were babies! Do they realise that staff are 19? (Not that they all are, of course!)

I reckon my CMs did way more school runs etc than I ever did. Drop off to school/nursery school, pick up from nursery, maybe several times a day as nursery times locally were staggered. 2pm pick up, 3pm pickup, afterschool pickup. The poor kid would be spending most of their day in the goddamn car! Plus most of the local CMs would be minding kids from different schools.

My children had interaction with older siblings and family friends on my watch!!

Second shitty CM had a child the same age as my youngest. Child was pretty devious and got my daft, innocent child into trouble, and guess what, mum always sided with her own child. Fuck that for a game of soldiers.

Again, all about the broad strokes and not about individual nuance

@Hotgirlwinter totally agree

2 tragic deaths = all nurseries are dangerous? Quite a leap...

That's great to hear. I'm glad you had such a positive experience.

No, that's why people research things to produce evidence that can inform us. It's available to be read should you wish to.

I couldn't agree more!

I would in no way have wanted my baby to be dragged out strapped in a car seat 3/4 times a day for school dropoffs and pickups.

This is bonkers. They just do school runs exactly as the do many younger siblings at home with mum

Yes, this isn't a good argument. "Tagging along" with what the older children are doing is exactly what happens day in, day out, in families up and down the land. It's not actually a naturally occuring state for young babies to be kept with only other the same age. They actually learn quite a bit by observing and interacting with older siblings and family friends.

This. For me, i wanted a set up mirroring a family home. A biggish family with four or five kids, yes, but a family. Maybe a 7 yr old, 5 yr old, couple of 2-3 year olds and a baby. A family doesn't usually consist of three 19 year olds in one room with 9 babies.

I would say if you do look for a book on child development look for one that is a textbook style one that references the research studies etc. Don't get one written by someone spouting their own philosophy. You'll find the ones using research to support their claims do all say broadly the same thing because the research all points the same way.