To think there needs to be a public inquiry into child development

I’m a teacher and even my top sets demonstrate poor behaviour and concentration. If the curriculum allowed me to teach in 60 second bursts like a reel, I’m sure I would have more success.

Point taken. But I meant more widely too. On planes etc.

Alot log children, coming into early years have no play skill's due to the use of screen time. They simply don't know how to play, they aren't getting the physical exercise as they don't go out much, they don't take risks anymore. Children are not resilient and are pampered.

Lower infant mortality. Off the top of my head, I can think of 4 children who had significant problems either whilst their mother was pregnant or during labour/birth, or in infancy. In the "old days" these pregnancies would not have been viable, and the babies would not have survived. All 4 children have some degree of developmental delay, ranging from never being able to walk or talk, to being able to be in a mainstream school albeit for only 2 hours a day. My dad's youngest sister, born in the 1940s, was born disabled, and they just let her die in the hospital as an infant. I am NOT advocating for a return to that, obviously it is an amazing thing that medicine has come along in leaps and bounds allowing these children to live with a decent quality of life. But society is not set up nor accepting enough of disabled people, and SEN provision is so lousy.

On a different note entirely I think that there is a lot more permissive parenting which is dressed up as gentle parenting. I actually struggle a bit with discipline myself, I've got better but am not perfect. However, I have had to let friendships fade with two mums that I really liked and got on with, because neither of them would do any basic discipline with their children. I stopped seeing one of the mums after we went out for the day and she allowed her DD to push around and hurt my DS. Similar with the other mum, we went round her house and she allowed her DS to push my DS2 off his scooter then chase both DS1 and DS2 around the house with a large stick.

It is almost seen as normal now - I went to a wedding recently and another mum said that both of her children were so badly behaved they both needed 1:1 at all times, despite being NT and the oldest one was in reception, so presumably in a class of 25+.

My 6 year old is the only one out of his group of friends who doesn't have an Xbox. When I was younger Xboxes and expensive games consoles were only given to older teenagers, not KS1 children. People are shocked when I say my 9 year old still plays with playmobil, my mum's friend had the cheek to tell us it was "babyish". Many children are in front of tablets indefinitely or taken out to organised activities, either way ensuring they are constantly entertained and have instant gratification, particularly on an addictive device. This doesn't help them problem solve or figure out what to do when bored.

Being bored is seen as a Bad Thing which must be avoided at all costs. The weekends must be packed with endless instagrammable fun for the sake of #makingmemories.

The fuss so many parents make at the end of each school year when their darling child who is exceedingly popular with many friends, has been put in a class with only a few of them, oh dear however will they cope. So little accountability and blaming teachers for everything.

Kids didn't used to go to restaurants. Weren't allowed in pubs. Went to McDonald's or little chef for an occasional treat but going to restaurants and cafes all the time is a recent development.

People used to leave kids outside the pub in the car with a packet of crisps. It wasn't that people tolerated children's bad behaviour in those days - in fact the opposite - they just weren't taken to adult environments at a young age.

@BertieBotts thank you for the figures; I hadn't realised the discrepancy between the numbers, I'd just thought of them both as factors.

Also a good point about improvements in child mortality.

I doubt we can take on tik tok, fb etc but MN could perhaps have a thread/article where MN readers can vote that we DO want a return of surestart for new Mums, all new Mums ,with guidance on food,discipline,sleep problems ,breast feeding, etc etc and which provides a place for new mums to socialise.

Then include info of where to find details of your MP and Labour Party leaders and suggest we start lobbying them now. They would take notice if enough people did it.

Another thing would be to discourage use of phones in school - I’m sure there are other things, eg promoting of junk food- but I think a sure start service properly funded would make a big difference.

Good parenting doesn’t require hours of undivided attention, no, but it does require willpower as the PP says. Of course it’s easier in the moment to give in to a tantrum or to just stick on the TV or to want to succumb to the addiction we all have with our phones. It’s a bit Like how everyone uses dummies now - it’s just easier than picking up the baby and rocking! Does that mean it’s the best thing to do? No.

people are addicted to their phones and they are overworked and stressed/everyone is eating UPF and therefore sluggish/depressed/tired in a way they weren’t before. If I eat a domino’s pizza I’m not the same the following day.

I feel like when I was growing up in the 90s there was just a better balance of strictness and attention/some tv some treat food but 80% of the time good food and expectation to amuse myself with games etc.

Not sure I really agree with you. Firstly, I think the short term pain for long-term gain is more related to having more money and resources than intelligence. There's a lot of research on why poor people are more likely to spend all their money and don't save the little they could save, for example.

Secondly I don't think that being a good parent actually requires hours of undivided attention.

I also think we need to move away from the narrative of how awful having kids is.

Or maybe we need to promote it more so women stop sleepwalking into having kids because "it's a mandatory life stage" and then find they hate it and want to bury their face in TikTok all day instead of doing another load of washing or playing another fucking game of dolls?

I also think we need to move away from the narrative of how awful having kids is.

I think some of that is the feeling of our children being so unwelcome. Kids just aren’t tolerated. It might be social media but you see a constant stream of posts re them not disturbing anyone else’s peace and to “teach them how to behave.” But nobody seems to acknowledge that learning anything is a process and that to succeed you must also be given the opportunity to fail.

It feels a lot like kids can’t be kids and their bad behaviour should be behind closed doors. Then people wonder why you use screens at restaurants etc.

My son is 4.5 year old has never used a tablet and only looks at my phone when I'm showing him pictures of places we're going etc. He watches telly but always with me and/or DH (his dad) sat with him r at least popping in and out the kitchen to check in. He only watches a handful of things too - duggee, bluey, pat, Sam and Winnie the pooh. No telly after 6pm.

He loves being outside which is fab.

He's also awaiting assessment for autism based on concerns raised by us, HV and nursery. He's well behaved, not violent but is very anxious and can be intensely particular about routine, transitions etc. Awful separation anxiety despite us doing everything the advice suggests. Sleep is and always has been very erratic.

I've been reading the thread with interest. There's a difference between children who are poorly behaved due to environment and children with sen. Excessive screens, poor diet, chaotic lives certainly aren't going to help them but they don't "cause" autism or ADHD.

I think we have a mix of more visibility and knowledge of these conditions, plus for lots of children we have things that will cause any kid to struggle - as mentioned above the cost of living, stressed, overwhelmed parents, over stuffed curriculums being taught by stressed teaches in under funded schools. It all adds up.

I also think we need to move away from the narrative of how awful having kids is. You see constantly on here. I get parents are tired and stressed but it's thread after thread of "I'm wishing away the weekend" "stick them in nursery another day" "get them in activities" (after 10 hour nursery days several times a week) "oh you've smacked your kid and screamed all week, nevermind they won't remember, have a wine" "oh don't worry babies are just boring" It's really depressing to be honest.

Exactly. Kids just got on with playing by themselves or with friends outdoors (or were entertained by a much bigger screen in the corner of a room), but as a pp pointed out, maybe that is the issue. I think kids don't interact with each other enough. My son barely has enough time to play at break time at school. It's much shorter than when I was at school - barely 15 minutes after lunch, then people moan they are unruly in class.

It certainly wasn't nurturing parenting that people romanticise back in the day. My OH and his brothers were constantly down A&E and his mother wasn't particularly attentive, and I raised myself in many ways, although my mum was very nurturing when she was around. People always blame parents of future generations, it has always been the case, but I do think it's quite a challenging time to raise kids now.

Also UPF?

I strongly believe a brain can’t be nourished, grow and thrive on chemical crap made in a lab.

Also with abnormalities, people don’t abort because of “soft markers” so you might be aware there was something concerning, like the foetus having a small head. But that alone isn’t compelling enough to justify a medical abortion. So yes, screening is better, but if it’s unreliable (which it is) it doesn’t help all that much.

There's nothing intellectually challenging about parenting young kids - in fact it's mostly repetitive and routine.

True but what this misses I think is that one marker (and a really important one) of intelligence is the ability to deal with short term pain for long term gain. Loads of that is required for good parenting. So choosing no screens, choosing vegetables and home cooked meals, not pacifying with screens or sweets. It doesn’t require intelligence to sit for hours playing imagination based games or drawing with a 2 year old but it requires a type of willpower/ understanding of consequences to chose to do it.

Possibly, but I think this is a very tiny number; there are about 3,000 abortions on medical grounds per year (and bear in mind many of these would be non survivable conditions, rather than survivable-but-disabling like Down's Syndrome) whereas about 60,000 babies are born premature (which is about 10% of all births) so roughly 20 times more.

The last time I was on one of these threads, someone pointed out that there has been a shift in that diseases like Polio and Measles used to cause disabilities in children but because these have largely been eradicated by vaccination, those kinds of effects are seen less often and so this is a sort of shift away from physical towards cognitive impairments instead.

Also, it's not just neonatal mortality which has increased, child/youth mortality in general has improved (presumably healthcare, vaccines, improved safety and supervision) so that in 1970, 24 children out of every 1000 born did not survive to adulthood, with 21 of those not surviving to age 5, whereas in 2021 it is only 5 out of every 1000 children born who die before they reach adulthood, and 4 of these are under 1 year old (there is not enough of a difference in the data to report separate figures for 1-5 year olds). So there are more surviving children and statistically they are more likely to be from backgrounds where they will be disadvantaged, more likely to have delays, attention issues, behavioural issues etc. This doesn't sound like much because it's about 1.5%, but if an average secondary school has about 1000 pupils, that is 15 pupils throughout that school, a primary school has about 300 so 5 pupils in any primary school, who would not have been there in the 60s, 70s, 80s. These children are very vulnerable - so vulnerable that in previous generations they might actually not have survived.

And yes age of parents is relevant, I heard something the other day I think it was on a podcast, saying that the current estimate is that there is an increase of approximately 10% in rates of autism and ADHD due to age of parents. So that is quite a significant increase, although it's not like it's doubling (or more) which is what people seem to want to make it out to be. Apparently this is because the parts of the brain which are affected in these disorders are fairly "new" in terms of evolution - the genetic "templates" for them are less clear and so they can more easily be disrupted by gene mutations, which are fairly common - if a mutation is significant enough to disrupt foetal development massively, then it causes rejection of the fertilised egg, or if this happens at a slightly later stage of development then you would have a miscarriage, if a mutation is more minor that the foetus is allowed to develop, then it might not be clear unless genetic testing is done and then mutations such as those causing neurodevelopmental disorders are so subtle that we cannot yet reliably identify them. There is some research into genes which are involved in the development of ADHD and autism, but it is much more complicated, it's not like Cystic Fibrosis for example where you can have a clear marker and a test to see if you're a carrier for it, there are hundreds and maybe thousands of individual genes which can contribute to individual cases. It seems like we are a while off being able to understand the genetics of these things well.

And that is where Sure Start centres came in. Like many decisions made under the guise of austerity it was very much a little short term gain with long lasting negative consequences.

@PrincessTeaSet yes I think you are right. Child only spaces are obviously a good thing but too much of it and they don't see adults model normal adult interactions. I read an academic paper on this a few years ago (completely forgotten who) and it made the case that children's poorer behaviour was from loss of a role in a family or community. Long ago children as young as 3 had chores, they believed their jobs had purpose and made them a valued member of a family. Independence skills were praised and highly valued. They now have a sense of uselessness and feel their only role is to be a pain in the ass basically. They attention seek because they are bored and have no sense of pride in their own achievements. It was a very interesting perspective.

I think it's more the case that people who have had poor parenting themselves and are as a result also suffering from poverty and lack of family support, are more likely to struggle as parents. I don't think this is due to low intelligence in most cases. We need more support for these parents to be able to break the cycle. There's nothing intellectually challenging about parenting young kids - in fact it's mostly repetitive and routine. Schools and doctors and health visitors should table to fill in the gaps unless these services are hideously over stretched!

Yes, me. DD had never used one till she started reception last year. They have a maths app they do on a tablet at school sometimes and they have to do the app for homework so she uses it for 10 minutes on my phone a few times a week. Apart from that she’s never used a phone or tablet.

I'm friends with a very middle class, educated group of people (parents all doctors, lawyers, academics etc). I'm the only one that hasn't let my kids have their own tablet. Had to give away some tablets bought by well meaning family members.

Just out of interest is there anyone here who under 7s with no access to a tablet (other than at school)?

I wonder if that's partly due to parents not having much contact with young children, due to the way modern society separates us from wider family and community. And then many parents put their kids in full time childcare and wish away the few hours they spend at the weekend, unable to enjoy time with their children as they don't know how to manage them, and are also too guilty to upset the child by enforcing good behaviour.

I think the notion of parents interacting with their kids less is pretty unfounded. People must have short memories. My MIL and other mothers of her generation fed their babies every 3-4 hours and returned them to their pram or cot where they stayed for the proceeding 3-4 hours. Or pushed to the bottom of the garden so nobody could hear them cry.

Dads weren’t even present at births, much less present for parenting and kids were primed and displayed for their fathers.

Kids were kicked out the house during daylight, seen and not heard.

You need to look into SEN funding by the government. They have made huge cuts to SEN budgets and not built much needed special schools. Schools are bloody falling in on kids FFS. Even the ones that are built are falling to shit.

I've just had to fight my LA for over a year to get my son into a specialist school and his needs are very complex - low functioning ASD and probable severe learning disabilities. If it has been a nightmare for my son with severe SEN, how easy do you think it is for people with higher functioning ASD, ADHD or other specific learning disabilities to get support? I would never have seen a child like my son in school when I was growing up, he would have been in a special school from the word go. This is how bad it has got.

To those saying it is a decline in parenting, I grew up in the 80s on an estate and bloody hell, parenting was awful then. Kids were just thrown out onto the street all day. Kids got run over, was drinking and on a few occasions set their homes on fire. Kids going to school smelling of fags with bad teeth. I agree knife crime is bad now, but we really can't look back with rose tinted spectacles as it was just as shit then. Our saving grace on our estate was our school and a brilliant head teacher. Despite living on a shitty estate, many of us went on to do ok in the end.

So yes, we do need a review - of why governments whether Tory or Labour consistently underfund and ignore education in general, and are refusing to support students with SEN or social problems adequately. I agree that SM and other factors are at play here, but schools need to be given half a chance to adapt to this new demand, and parents need to not be working ridiculous hours and have constant financial pressures so they can be mentally there for their kids. Living standards have declined a lot and we have a lot of children in poverty now. This is bound to affect development.