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To think there needs to be a public inquiry into child development

592 replies

MaryMaryVeryContrary · 19/05/2024 11:53

It really seems like we have a looming societal crisis in terms of child development and therefore the quality of the public in 10-20 years time. Experienced teachers across the board seem to be reporting an overwhelming increase in delayed, aggressive and disruptive children. I’m extremely worried about how this will impact society when they become adults - it seems (as a guess) at least a tenth of children will be incapable of work of any kind, and many more will need copious amounts of support to live any kind of responsible life.

AIBU to think we need an urgent public inquiry into this and what is going on? It seems to be the elephant in the room and anybody who tries to discuss it is shouted down.

I’m sure some of it is due to cuts in services but surely that can’t account for it all - it’s very sudden and extremely alarming.

OP posts:
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SapphireGood · 22/05/2024 08:09

Sometimes I think something is amiss and that things are worsening....but then I think back to my own childhood. 30 years ago there was some absolutely APPALLING behaviour at school. Shocking things... Things that would have been on social media, then probably the news...

Not a day went by without someone shouting the most exciting words a kid can hear....."FIGHT!!!" (Everyone runs like a herd of sheep to watch the kids beating each other up in those glorious few minutes before a teacher becomes aware)

But do we just make a "bigger deal" of stuff now? For example videos that have made it on to tiktok or kids beating other kids up... That kind of stuff happened daily...I bet half the time the parents never even got made aware! Let alone millions of folk and trial by social media!!

You could say that the 4 plus year wait for autism diagnosis and 2 plus year wait to see CAMHS is evidence that things are worsening.

I can think of several kids though that definitely would have been diagnosed with ND or mental health problems but weren't back then..it wasn't a thing. Not saying that that was right by any means, but it might explain why things "seem" worse now. We all have a world of infinite data at our fingertips.

cassgate · 22/05/2024 07:49

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 21/05/2024 18:55

One of the reasons l left teaching was because l felt constantly over stimulated.

Every wall covered with displays, washing lines with words on them, no time to get a lesson ready.

l used to long for a nice landscape painting on a plain wall.

Agreed. Every spare inch of space in my school has some kind of display. Why?The kids don’t look at them, staff don’t look at them, parents don’t look at them. The amount of work that goes into changing them frequently to make sure they reflect current learning is immense. Why do we do it, one word - Ofsted.

Grandmasswagbag · 22/05/2024 07:41

I don’t think we need an inquiry to tell us that 15 years of increased deprivation, slashing NHS, social and early years services, meddling in education so the system works for hardly anyone, and reliance on screens from birth, and a pandemic is affecting child development. But if that’s what’s needed to spark some action then I agree with you. Has anyone heard Jon Haidt talk about the issue of smart phones? I’ve not read his book but heard an interview and everything he said made so much sense. We’ve essentially re programmed children and they are not having a ‘biologically normal’ childhood anymore.

This is more than just increased awareness and diagnoses of SEN. I know a lot of teachers and someone who works in early years ASD services and everyone across the board is baffled by the dramatic increases in their area. Not just of borderline cases that might not have been picked up years ago, but really high needs, speech delay, toileting problems etc. Starting school unable to hold a book, recognise their names, dress themselves is common. Echoing a pp, some will voice privately theories that they can’t suggest publicly. Screen use, parenting (or lack of) and UPFs are some things thrown around.

I’ve said this before and wasn’t believed but in my LA EHCPs have increased X3 just since covid. It’s absolutely true and echoes what teachers are reporting up and down the country it seems.

Scintella · 22/05/2024 06:38

Walking to school is ok if everyone is on board with it -especially other drivers.
It would be a big change of culture for U.K. drivers -at present even parents doing drop off can be a liability.

NotReallyOnFire · 21/05/2024 21:10

My DS's happiest time in secondary, ironically, was when they let them play hide and seek once. He talked about it for days afterwards and still retells the story three years later.

What has gone wrong for kids that this has become a rare treat?!

They do indeed need time to play, and time to decompress.

I think the constant push for academic excellent is literally shredding the poor kids.

NotReallyOnFire · 21/05/2024 21:07

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 21/05/2024 20:35

Dh did a Microsoft training on PowerPoint years ago..

Its supposed to have 3 simple short bullet points per slide. About 4-5 words for each point.

Instead kids have to fight through multi coloured essays on each slide.

This is exactly the problem. Half of it makes no sense, is ungrammatical, badly spelled, or is just there for impact. They would be better to just turn it off and talk about the subject. It would save the NHS a small fortune in mental health care, and the council another truckload of money in EHCP applications.

eggplant16 · 21/05/2024 21:01

washing lines with words on them

punctuation pyramids, learning hats, Mozart, big writing.

All utter shite.

eggplant16 · 21/05/2024 20:59

SprinkleofSpringShowers · 19/05/2024 20:56

I think the notion of parents interacting with their kids less is pretty unfounded. People must have short memories. My MIL and other mothers of her generation fed their babies every 3-4 hours and returned them to their pram or cot where they stayed for the proceeding 3-4 hours. Or pushed to the bottom of the garden so nobody could hear them cry.

Dads weren’t even present at births, much less present for parenting and kids were primed and displayed for their fathers.

Kids were kicked out the house during daylight, seen and not heard.

yes but they were with other kids, playing. Making neural pathways.

My partner was traumatised by the birth and frankly of no help to me.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 21/05/2024 20:35

NotReallyOnFire · 21/05/2024 20:12

Yes I think that's absolutely the problem for the kids too. A young friend of mine said recently that she doesn't think the secondary teachers even know what's on the powerpoint slides half the time, and yet the kids have to sit looking at the ghastly slides. A lot of the time the teacher didn't even write the slides and are just delivering a pre-written deck. They should just turn the projector off.

Dh did a Microsoft training on PowerPoint years ago..

Its supposed to have 3 simple short bullet points per slide. About 4-5 words for each point.

Instead kids have to fight through multi coloured essays on each slide.

NotReallyOnFire · 21/05/2024 20:12

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 21/05/2024 18:55

One of the reasons l left teaching was because l felt constantly over stimulated.

Every wall covered with displays, washing lines with words on them, no time to get a lesson ready.

l used to long for a nice landscape painting on a plain wall.

Yes I think that's absolutely the problem for the kids too. A young friend of mine said recently that she doesn't think the secondary teachers even know what's on the powerpoint slides half the time, and yet the kids have to sit looking at the ghastly slides. A lot of the time the teacher didn't even write the slides and are just delivering a pre-written deck. They should just turn the projector off.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 21/05/2024 18:55

One of the reasons l left teaching was because l felt constantly over stimulated.

Every wall covered with displays, washing lines with words on them, no time to get a lesson ready.

l used to long for a nice landscape painting on a plain wall.

NotReallyOnFire · 21/05/2024 18:14

endofthelinefinally · 21/05/2024 18:11

My DC used to come home from school with headaches from the noise. This would have been in the mid 90s onwards. I remember one of my DC begging the teacher to be allowed to sit and work in the corridor. I can't imagine the level of overstimulation children are subjected to in schools now. Then they come home to more noise, more lights, more screens. It can't be beneficial.

This is exactly the problem. Everything is over-stimulation in school now, and a lot is actual horror, which is mean to be funny, but really isn't for some kids. Kids are then often returning home to peer pressure to play 18+ shooting games. It's really not good. Once the damage is done, it's very hard to undo it.

endofthelinefinally · 21/05/2024 18:11

My DC used to come home from school with headaches from the noise. This would have been in the mid 90s onwards. I remember one of my DC begging the teacher to be allowed to sit and work in the corridor. I can't imagine the level of overstimulation children are subjected to in schools now. Then they come home to more noise, more lights, more screens. It can't be beneficial.

Pin0cchio · 21/05/2024 17:48

My 7 year old would be perfectly capable of walking to and from his school (we live in a village). He knows to look before crossing roads and there is only a small residential close to cross to reach the school.

The only reason i can't let him is the school don't allow it.

Pin0cchio · 21/05/2024 17:45

As a working parent who has had to use plenty of childcare, i don't think its great for kids.

We need to start embracing career models that allow for both mums & dads to go part time when children are younger, and to allow more options for working between 9 & 3 but being around after school a bit more for under 8s.

We shouldn't be treating parenting as a low value activity that can be outsourced in a bid to reduce what it costs.

Screens are another problem & im guilty with this myself. I impose pretty big screen restrictions on the kids but struggle badly with my own phone addiction. I honestly wish that smart phones & tablets had never been invented.

NotReallyOnFire · 21/05/2024 17:24

Thank you for sending sympathy. It helps very much.

SprinkleofSpringShowers · 21/05/2024 16:00

@NotReallyOnFire I don’t have the answers but I’m sorry for your situation, sounds horrendous.

NotReallyOnFire · 21/05/2024 15:45

Hi,

I wondered if anybody might know what the rates of EBSA are at the moment post-covid and Brexit compared with the rates pre-covid and brexit?

I only wonder because my DC was a steady 99% attendance for years pre-covid and is now homeschooling because of panic attacks.

The school seems terribly short staffed, and I've rung round loads of other schools for the EHCP process and they are all neck-deep in SEND kids too.

I would be interested to know if this is a national problem and whether anybody know the figures.

It seems really relevant to this thread, because my DS is now classed as out of school because of disability whereas he was a thriving mainstream child before.

RhubarbCurd · 21/05/2024 13:56

https://wellcome.org/press-release/one-six-pregnancies-among-women-britain-are-unplanned

One in six (16.2%) pregnancies experienced in the past year score as unplanned, 29% as ambivalent, and just over half (55%) as planned.
...

The majority of unplanned pregnancies, though, occur in women aged 20-34 years, because more pregnancies occur in this age group.

Some of those will be actual contraceptive failures they do happen even with coils - knew quite a few already mothers who had failures with coils in my area it was investigated but turned out to be a statical fluke ie no pattern with make or fitters.

One in six pregnancies among women in Britain are unplanned

One in six pregnancies among women in Britain are unplanned, and one in 60 women (1.5%) experience an unplanned pregnancy in a year, according to new results from the third National Survey of Sexual Attitudes and Lifestyles (Natsal), published in The L...

https://wellcome.org/press-release/one-six-pregnancies-among-women-britain-are-unplanned

MaryMaryVeryContrary · 21/05/2024 13:42

badwolf82 · 21/05/2024 11:16

Those numbers are huge. I wonder to what extent pregnancies in the UK are unplanned compared to other OECD countries? Unplanned pregnancy + heavy drinking culture among women (and yes, drinking large glasses of wine after work every day is heavy drinking and could be classed as an addiction) = more opportunities for early alcohol exposure for the fetus.

Another highly unpopular thing to consider is whether or not the very high use of SSRIs and other psychiatric drugs during pregnancy may have a role to play. There are, as is always the case with pregnancy, no good studies on this and yet women are told they are safe.

I think the U.K. has more ‘careless’ pregnancies to be honest. Because we have a relatively generous welfare state which will ensure no child is left homeless, women don’t fear pregnancy in the way they used to, and there’s a lot of ‘whoopsy I’m pregnant, ah well it happens’. There’s much less stigma as well.

OP posts:
RhubarbCurd · 21/05/2024 13:01

@BertieBotts I was nodding along to all of that.

I was frequently told in my kids childhood they had problems but weren't bad enough to access support or get near screening or diagnosis.

We tend to see our role as parents as supporting DC and when you know there are issue try and mitigate or solve them. So we did research found time and money to help them.

At certain points enough people and us raised the persistent issues to get near screening - twice now been told our support has left them borderline - one case that was it - other they spoke to us and realised strategies were obscuring their rating system and are progressing with diagnosis.

So essentially offering all that support meant it's delayed out kids diagnosis and access to professional help - at same time also made to feel guilty couldn't afford to go private and avoid delays.

Investinmyself · 21/05/2024 12:49

@BertieBotts I’ve enjoyed reading about the differences.
The concept of building up slowly and learning from experiences seems to have been lost. It’s shifted to only doing when old enough. As though you automatically can do things once you reach the magic age.

BertieBotts · 21/05/2024 12:02

I agree a full investigation would be too long and sluggish and a task force may be better. I can’t see it happening - but I can see posts on here in 15-20 years wondering why on earth we kicked the can down the road and deploring the extreme crisis in social care.

I kind of think this now for elderly care TBH. It's been obvious that it would happen for decades but there hasn't been anything put in place to mitigate it, and now there is so much elderly bed blocking in hospitals that ambulance services can't drop off their patients and response times for emergencies are alarmingly dire as a knock on effect.

In terms of child development, it seems really clear to me that early intervention (and I'd class e.g. sure start as a form of EI, though I don't think sure start is magic, I did think it was great) is the model with the cheapest implementation and best long term outcomes, but nobody seems to want to implement it because by design, if you're intervening early enough then you're catching a lot of kids that don't look like they need much support, and definitely some kids who would have done just fine without any support, so it is a bit inefficient in that sense. I remember sure start was constantly under fire because "middle class mums" used it and I kept saying on here that was one of its strengths because it was surprisingly equalising - but it doesn't look that way to politicians who are either looking very short term, or they are looking at a single issue at a time rather than the whole picture. No we can't possibly give out free baby music classes to middle class mums, they need to pay for it.

But I do think that the costs - to the kids themselves and also to their peers, their classmates, their siblings, their parents, ultimately their communities/the services that end up supporting them later on, not just but also the financial costs, are much much more if you just let things go until they are drowning and only then look at offering support and are surprised (or even refuse the support!) when it is more complicated to administer because now in addition to delays which have been compounded by not receiving support in time, this child now perhaps also has trauma and/or they have developed unhealthy coping mechanisms (e.g. they automatically resist authority) and/or they have a totally crap view of themselves (e.g. I'm stupid) and/or other things you'd want them to engage with (e.g. I hate school, I can't do maths), and/or the parents have fallen into unhelpful habits like perhaps too much screen time, because they don't know what else to do and it is the only way to stop the child terrorising their siblings, or whatever.

If you speak to any SEN parents in the UK, they are waiting years for services and diagnosis. There are barely any therapies. A friend's child is three, not speaking and still on a waiting list for speech therapy which seems absolutely bonkers to me. These are such critical periods of development, it ought to be extremely urgent to get that therapy. You wouldn't leave someone walking around on a broken leg for six weeks because there is a waiting list. There seems to be no point to a diagnosis at all, if you even get one, because parents frequently don't get offered anything other than maybe a leaflet, which is a joke, often containing outdated and minimal information, you can find more comprehensive information (and a huge amount of predatory misinformation, BTW) in a five second google or even a scroll on tiktok. People are encouraged (rightly) not to self-diagnose, but then you end up having to look up information - usually online, because this is what's accessible - while on a waiting list, so essentially self-diagnosing, because you still have to support your child in the meantime and the standard parenting things are not working (or making things worse). Or a private diagnosis is looked down upon because it's "buying a diagnosis" but it is often the only way to get a solid answer without waiting years. And not one that everyone has access to, of course.

I really don't see why people are looking to blame parents when the services that are supposed to support them are so shit. When my eldest DS was little (2009-10) there was a 9 month check and a 2 year check by the health visitor plus there were regular weighing clinics you could go to have any questions answered. The one (3 month) premature baby in our NCT group had extra check ups. I remember his mum being concerned as he did not walk/talk until 18 months, but then he did - IIRC he would have been offered physio and speech therapy if he had not.

When I had DS2 (2018) I was in Germany but on my MN birth month thread, I was surprised to hear most areas have gone down to one check up at around 1 year old and some don't even have that. In comparison we seemed to have loads of doctor check ups in Germany at 2 weeks/8 weeks/4 months/8 months/12 months, then every year until age 5.

I know that issues were picked up with DS2 through these checks which totally flew under the radar with DS1 at the same age, because we were in the UK and the only qualified person with an eye on his development was nursery.

badwolf82 · 21/05/2024 11:16

RhubarbCurd · 21/05/2024 10:02

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fetal-alcohol-spectrum-disorder-health-needs-assessment/fetal-alcohol-spectrum-disorder-health-needs-assessment

most recently from 2019.
This data shows that:

  • 22% of women in England did not drink alcohol in the last 12 months
  • 59% of women in England drank at levels within the UK CMOs’ low risk drinking guidelines (that is 14 units or less in the last week)
  • 9% drank at an increasing risk level (14 to 35 units)
  • 2% drank at a higher risk level (over 35 units)
The figures for women drinking more than 14 units per week varied across age groups, with age 55 to 64 the most common (20%).[footnote 1] The best data available for the proportion of women who consume alcohol during pregnancy comes from the Infant Feeding Survey 2010,[footnote 2] though this has since been discontinued and guidance for pregnant women has changed.

Nevertheless, 2010 data showed that: 2 in 5 mothers (40%) drank alcohol during pregnancy, which was fewer than in 2005 (54%).

Mothers aged 35 or over (52%), mothers from managerial and professional occupations (51%) and mothers from a White ethnic background (46%) were more likely to drink during pregnancy. Mothers in England (41%) and Wales (39%) were more likely to drink during pregnancy than mothers in Scotland and Northern Ireland (35% in each).

A study in 2017 estimated alcohol consumption during pregnancy in different countries around the world, placing the UK 4th highest (41% drinking during pregnancy).[footnote 3], [footnote 4] The study does recognise significant limitations however, such as relying on people’s memory to record alcohol use, and inconsistent data on drinking patterns. A UK cohort study suggested a higher proportion (79% drinking in the first trimester, declining thereafter).[footnote 5]

Those figures are way higher than I was expecting - as I didn't drink at all in any pg - though we were trying for pg - so did vitamins healthy eating weight etc and do know unplanned pg drinking does occur more but overall there is a decline while some groups like middle class over 35 are still really high.

I have come across other suggestions like ND/SEN being linked to subset of population not as good biologically at purging body of some modern chemicals but that's also controversial and still being researched.

In my family it's genetic it's just modern world making it harder for each generation to cope with.

Those numbers are huge. I wonder to what extent pregnancies in the UK are unplanned compared to other OECD countries? Unplanned pregnancy + heavy drinking culture among women (and yes, drinking large glasses of wine after work every day is heavy drinking and could be classed as an addiction) = more opportunities for early alcohol exposure for the fetus.

Another highly unpopular thing to consider is whether or not the very high use of SSRIs and other psychiatric drugs during pregnancy may have a role to play. There are, as is always the case with pregnancy, no good studies on this and yet women are told they are safe.

BertieBotts · 21/05/2024 10:56

The really bad one is stopping and waving you across into middle of road with no island and moving traffic other way - got that a lot with young kids with me- then getting upset when you decline as an adult that can be hard to deal with would hate it for a child.

I failed a (German) driving test for doing this and was specifically stopped and the examiner said "Why did you do that??" so I don't think it happens as much in Germany. I had already failed for something else so I was a bit despondent and trying to be nice but anyway. I can see how dangerous it is in hindsight. There was no traffic the other side, but someone might have tried to overtake me.

But I suspect we are derailing - and as I said, there are not really 5 year olds walking to school all over the place, they tend to be 6-7 minimum. I just shared the anecdote that technically, a 5yo can be cleared to walk home in certain circumstances because I thought it was an interesting contrast to the UK, especially since in the UK, DS would be coming to the end of year 1 whereas he won't even start school here until September 2025. So he can't read or write yet which would be seen as behind in the UK. Whereas OTOH he is seen as (potentially) old enough to cross roads and go out to play by himself - not that he does this.

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