To think that no newly qualified lawyer can be worth a salary of £150k?

It’s the norm in London at good firms.

No one is starting on £30k even when training.

OP, it sounds like you know nothing about your industry.

Your point confirms that the people they recruit really ARE the best. If you’re clever enough to get to Oxford and are fluent in mandarin, you’re not “average”.

OP - if you're a partner in your firm, do you have full sight of the the finances? Obviously not asking you to share them with us, but you do need to consider if you're being treated fairly in a not very good firm, or they're taking the absolute piss out of you.

I’m a future MC trainee solicitor (not at one of the two firms which have just increased NQ salaries to £150k). I think there are a coupe of reasons why that has become necessary beyond the insane hours these law firms demand:

1. if you take the most direct route (a law degree, the SQE, and a two year training contract), you would be 25 by the time you earn £150k, but the average age to qualify as a solicitor is just over 30, so this isn’t graduates straight out of university earning £150k, this is people in the late 20s/early 30s, some of whom will be thinking of starting families in the near future.

2. MC law firms are competing both with US law firms (one of which pays £180k NQ in their London office) and with top investment banking, hedge fund, venture capital, and consulting outfits to attract talent - they need to have an attractive NQ salary to compensate for the fact that as a trainee solicitor you have to spend a year minimum (and if you haven’t done a law degree two years minimum) studying while receiving a minimal grant (mine is £12k during the first year of study and £20k during the second year) instead of earning £80k upwards straight out of university in alternative career paths. It’s essentially compensation for the opportunity cost of having to study full-time instead of being able to work in a high-paying career straight out of university.

It does help though if you have as the woman I know had, a good degree from Oxford and fluency (she’s not from there) in Cantonese/Mandarin.

Obviously, they’ll want to think of where the money and clients will come from and pay accordingly. And even better if no DC so they can travel more and work longer hours.

My DDs bf has a training contract with one of the ‘snobby’ firms and the wages are very high.
He works really hard, has always put many hours into his study and spent his holidays doing internships when at university.
I can imagine many people burning out, it’s a lot of money but not easy money.

Move to London and earn that money then, problem solved.

Those are just the best, not every new graduate

@Rainydayinlondon I don't enjoy it at all. I do my best to avoid it. But if the work is driven by the markets or opportunistic deals then you don't get a choice over when it is done and you can't plan for it. I am also only able to plan to the extent the commercial team plan - and like in any job stuff breaks down sometimes. I do my best with what I have got and so do they.

I do my best to keep a sense of humour and be available at all times if they need information - whether it's 2.30 in the morning or when I am out and about. I do my best to be transparent about fees so both sides feel they have done well out of the work. When I can give them more time I do - urgent work invariably ends up with points being missed etc. But my job is to get it done and the law firm's job is to ensure they resource the work so we meet the deadline. I can't get too involved in how they resource work - that's their job as a business to do

Yes, they’re worth it. Market forces.

Three friends of SIL’s who she was at Oxford with, were law graduates.

After graduating one worked for a silver circle firm, not sure where other worked and third had a training contract at a magic circle firm.

The first two lefts the top firms in their 30s to get in house legal jobs in non law firms. One got married and had children, the other would’ve liked marriage and children but I think she was too career minded and it ruined at least 2 relationships. She worked in China with her first law firm as she’s fluent in mandarin/cantonese.

The third wasn’t kept on by the magic circle firm after her training contract, was disappointed but moved and got a good job at another law firm and got married and had DC so her life worked out well.

The long hours, sleeping in offices isn’t a myth either so if they’re started on those figures they’ll earn them. I did hear one of them say though, she’d rather earn less and have a better work life balance, which she’s done (and so have the others).

Why do you give them such little notice? Your thread sounds as if you rather enjoy spoiling their weekend by sending something at 7 pm classed as “urgent urgent “.

I was fully qualified and made £30k.

Think of advice (n) and advise (v)

I am in-house and instruct these firms. I don't care about salaries all I care about is that the work gets done and before the deadline. I send them huge pieces of work with little to no notice and if it gets to them on a Saturday they have to get their team in place and start working.

The average hourly rate for a partner is over 2k and I don't know the rates for more junior lawyers.

They never have the ability to say no we can't do it - if they want the money for their hourly rates they simply have to resource as much as they can and get it done.

Is an NQ worth it in terms of skills and expertise - possibly not. Do I think they need a certain level of compensation that is equitable when you look at the money the equity partners are taking home off the back of their hard work - yes. You can't have the partners on multiple millions a year and have the juniors who do the grunt work on 60k.

They send me the bill, it is eye watering, we haggle a bit over the amount and then it is paid. We all make money and go home. And then I send another email at 7pm on a Friday saying urgent urgent and the nqs cancel their weekend plans again.

It's not a race to the bottom. We constantly say how people in other lines of work should be better paid for what they do. Let's focus on increasing wages across the board rather than pushing the bar down.

You are serving your community.

They are serving quite a different clientele - with deeper pockets.

I’m a solicitor at the regional office of a national firm, 5yrs PQE, and earn £86k plus bonus.

The City firms pay those salaries because the work they do is extremely lucrative and they want to attract the cream of the crop in a very competitive job market. They also beast people with hours and expect a lot for that salary.

You describing them as “snobby” is just weird - they aren’t snobby. And have you only just realised some solicitors earn considerably more than others, and some types of work, for certain types of client, is far more profitable?

I don’t begrudge them it at all, good luck to them!

I didn’t get a first or know a lot (or any!) of the right people, but I work at one of the “snobby” firms named in the OP! I have been working for 20 years and only earn a bit more than the newly qualified lawyers. However, I work part time and strictly 9 to 5. They are being paid to work very long hours (including weekends and all night if required) under immense pressure. Many people couldn’t (or wouldn’t choose to) do this.

Can I ask what hours you work? One of my closest friends is a London lawyer and was on that sort of salary when he started. He worked obscene hours, up to 18 hours a day, 7 days a week, on conference calls at 3am because of offices in Japan and the US etc. Seeing what he went through, and the toll it took, he absolutely earned that 150k. (Yes I am well aware people can work obscene hours for far less, but we’re talking about lawyers specifically here.)

Don't be too bothered op - they will be spending half of that on london rent & travel.

So move to snobby London and earn more 🤷‍♀️

My husband did it for 10 years before getting out. He’s been out for 8 years.

PPs are right- they owned him, body and soul.

If he got home by 1030pm (he left the house at 7am on a normal, not busy day), I thought it was a good ‘easy’ day.

He did not see are two eldest children in the week at all (well awake at least!). He only saw them at weekends… but not if it was busy because then he had to work. Often he did not see me awake for days at a time.

I felt pretty much like a single parent Monday- Saturday. As the spouse it was really lonely.

When I was in labour with DC2 (having been rushed in for an induction due to a problem) he was told (jokingly, but the subtext was VERY serious), that labour takes a long time, and there’s a lot of hanging about, so make sure you keep on top of your emails.

The pressure and strain upon him was immense. And he was in a dept. that was not considered that cut throat! Friend from his trainee intake that went into the higher paying/more intense departments were sleeping at desks… getting a cab home at 6am that would wait outside whilst they showered and changed and then straight back to the office. That was not anything unusual.

He didn’t want to continue and was at the stage where he needed to put more effort into getting clients and making partner. He decided it was enough and couldn’t do it anymore.

He moved to the higher education sector. His salary is now lower than yours. We are much much happier as a family.

My best friend has been at a Magic Circle (and is far from 'snobby') since she qualified. She's on well over £200K now. She started on just over £90K in 2015. Was she worth it? Yes.

Because only someone young can do the sorts of hours that she was pulling. Once you get older, priorities change, you settle down, have kids, want a slower life etc and so you're not willing to schmooze clients and work until gone 2AM every night. They pay them so much because of the insane hours that they need to work in order for the basic company 'niceties' to be met and for deadlines to be met. As they get older, their hours get more 'normal' - the 'managing partner' (in normal speak) at the law firm I did my Vac Scheme at worked 9-5 every day.

My best friend now works the same hours as our friend who's a legal aid lawyer and, quite frankly, you couldn't pay me to do legal aid. £30K or £200K for the same hours? I know which I'd pick.

Pay has no relation to worth or competence just how close you are to the money. Big law firms are closer to the money so they pay more and they will be expecting to own those newly qualified lawyers working long hours and attending client dinners etc. (not that I feel at all sorry for them on £150k a year). From the ex-magic circle lawyers I know it is just a rat race where you either are psychotic enough to climb up the ladder or you jump off at some point and have a good career doing law elsewhere without the stress and toxicity that seems to be a feature of those places. Seems to be the same with finance and consultancy.

Figment - the market is really variable - I joined CMS as an NQ in 1997 on £50k but the market was booming then.