To think that people living longer is making quality of life for everyone worse?

Ok so I’ve not yet read the whole thread, I will in a bit. But I think you’re on a slippery slope OP.

Ok, so we cure diseases in older people and they live longer and therefore need more care when they get dementia or are frail and can’t live alone . Yep. But we also keep babies alive from very very premature births , often causing huge long term health effects and care needs. The cost ( per person) of home care packages is actually higher for children and adults of working age (up to 65) than it is for older people ( this is my experience in a field I work in so I can’t link stats but it is accurate where I live) So what do you suggest? We don’t intervene in pregnancies and premature babies ? We don’t resuscitate anyone over the age of 65? 70? 80?

where is the line? Because the cost of social care isn’t all due to older people ( and the cost will increase not only due to an increase in population but an increase in the needs of those people with lifelong conditions we now know how to manage )

My mum is 95 and has an advance directive that she doesn’t want any life saving/prolonging treatment or to go into a care home unless it’s absolutely necessary. She also has a DNR because she has vascular dementia and cardio vascular issues - her consultant advised that if she were resuscitated after an event she would have no quality of life. I have her LPA and she lives with/is cared for by myself and partner who are retired, with other family members pitching in as they are able.

She was recently hospitalised after a fall and a couple of days before she was due to be discharged l went in at visiting time and found the hospital social worker ‘interviewing’ mum with a view to putting her into care. Mum had no idea what this woman was proposing and it was clear to anyone with half a brain that she lacked the capacity to agree to anything.

l asked the social worker if she was aware mum had dementia, or that she had an LPA in place - all of which were noted in her records. She did not. She’d been advised by the discharge team that mum was vulnerable and needed evaluation for care before discharge and hadn’t even checked the records before coming to see mum. I hadn’t even been advised that this had been put in motion, despite being actively involved in her care as her LPA and advising the hospital of her living arrangements.

When mum was discharged l was given a copy of her discharge notes. Despite her having a DNR put in place by that same hospital and noted clearly on her records - with the mandatory ‘purple form’ issued to me as her LPA - the consultant had judged her as ‘for full resuscitation’ in the event of any emergency.

l made a complaint through PALS and eventually received an apology and an acknowledgement that mum should never have been interviewed by the social worker without my presence as LPA - although l never received a satisfactory explanation as to why it happened. They also acknowledged that there was a DNR in place and rescinded the direction for full resuscitation.

Your sad experience was much worse and my own echoes your view that it’s very difficult to actually put directives into action when the time comes. The lack of communication within the NHS was appalling in both our cases and the thought of introducing voluntary euthanasia into what at times is a chaotic system is concerning to say the least.

Eugenics by stealth is already happening.

My 84 year old DF has had declining health for years, and it's gone rapidly downhill in the last 6 months. Multiple chest infections not helped by antibiotics, urine infections, and now on a fast track to "rule out" bowel cancer. Thing is he had a splenectomy due to lymphoma some years back. He has an annual blood test and since Covid a chat on the phone with his consultant. Looks pretty logical that early investigation and intervention might have helped but it's taken till now to get a GP appointment and any sort of tests. And still they're not looking at the big picture. He's mentally sharp as a tack. Although exhausted and stressed. It's going to be a long unpleasant decline most likely but his impending dependence has been engineered in my opinion.

He had to leave his marital home because my mentally ill SM (who may also have dementia that no-one will diagnose) was violent to him and he's too frail to take it and scared of hurting her if he defends himself. She has capacity and the right to cause chaos according to her CMHT. Because they keep messing around with her medication and won't admit she lacks capacity.

The lack if early intervention will probably lead to their early deaths, or the need for more intensive resources. No logic, no care, no compassion.

They are human beings FFS. Just like you and me. Not "drains on resources". So easy to be pragmatic if you're a robot following party orders.

Money is generated artificially too you know. Distributed and garnered and manipulated by humans for their own ends.

Never felt quite so much like shouting "Wake up sheeple" as I do now to be Frank.

Urgh.

In Switzerland, one can join a society whereby one can choose to be euthanised when one is gravely ill and possibly partially mentally incapacitated. The only requirements are that one has to be a member for at least 5 (or thereabout?) years, the decision to join the society has to be made while in good mental health and a yearly subscription for membership be paid. A Swiss friend of mine has done that though he's only in his 50s and in perfect health. I think that is a mighty good idea and don't understand why we can't offer that here in the UK.

Nothing wrong with Dignitas etc but relatively few people want it & by the time they do, its too late.

571 uk citizens have gone to Dignitas since 1998 despite it being very affordable for many in the UK and legal (approx £5000)

I guess when it comes down to it, most people want to live.

Thank you so much.
It's horrific.

I fully agree with Dignitas and the right to end ones life on ones own terms shoud be an unassailable right.
I am so sorry about your mum. Such a horrid place to be

Dementia does seem to be a biggie

Just listening to Danish bio medical scientist who led to Ozempic / Wegovy branded drugs - they’ve done well plus to boost Denmark’s economy

The tone of the last sentence

Spot on.

That's quite a simplistic view that again sweeps over the root causes of these societal, and often global, issues.

Who would be providing this family care in the UK? Most adults with elderly parents are working outside of the home, which has historically not been the case. We have never required two full time salaries to support a family in the past. And now people have fewer children, because it's less affordable thank ever before to raise a family, there will be increasing numbers of elderly people who don't have younger family members.

Again, the finger can be pointed at corporations and the elite. Greed, pure and simple.

For those that say "my MiL was kept alive with antibiotics, when she was 134yo with advanced dementia...."

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/antibiotics/antibiotic-antimicrobial-resistance/

My mum was 83, chest infection, after a stroke, allowed to die with palliative care only & this was 8 years ago.

Life expectancy is now falling, hardly surprising given the state of the public services and our ever increasing waist lines.

Do those societies have a cost of living requiring two incomes to be able to afford to even rent if you’re proposing to have a family ? And let’s face it, the burden of care will always fall to the woman. And if you have the means to pay for care - property or savings, you are expected to use that before the state will step in. It’s usually only the rich ‘higher rate taxpayer’ who can afford the financial planning necessary to avoid losing everything they own to pay for care in later life or due to disability.

I'm so sorry this happened to your mum. It's not right is it? No one would want that kind of prolonged assistance, it's suffering. We wouldn't be allowed to do that to an animal.

Completely agree. I’d go further and say it is immoral that in wealthy countries huge resources go into treating diseases of old age (cancers for example) yet in the developing world people die for want of basics like clean water. This is only going to be exacerbated over time with climate change where resources come under more pressure.

That's very interesting, thank you.

In answer to your original question, i dont think there is a link to medical advances and worsening public services. Because i think that a lot of medical advances mean less care is needed in many cases or just the same care at a different point in time.

I think the biggest medical advance needed now is around dementia. If we can prevent it most of this debate will go away. As this is the one people fear and its the one that can go on for years with high care needs. I have seen some interesting research around dementia and diabetes which is very promising.

Well it’s ok to ask as it’s a pressing problem

What are the options?

Yet some societies in the world and communities in the UK believe in close family ties and the responsibility lies with sons and daughters and other close family members. The UK feels it's the responsibility of the state or the taxpayer- specifically, the burden falls on the higher-rate taxpayer.
In our country, it is common for children's play to be monetized and controlled by private entities. This is especially evident in sports, particularly football. Nowadays, kids rarely play in public parks; instead, they are sent to clubs where they have to pay to play.

I believe the UK struggles with openly discussing these issues.

Is that you Rishi ? Sounds like typical Tory divide and rule to me.

My Mum had an advance directive ( as do I and my partner).

In reality it was difficult to get the medical profession to take any notice of it. Not help by covid and not being allowed into the hospital

Mum had a catastrophic stroke. She was unable to speak much, swallow, blind in one eye, or sit upright without help. This kind of thing was covered in her advance directive ( no chance of recovering to independence, unable to swallow so need artificial feeding, ) yet the doctors kept in pumping IV antibiotics into her. Even when she was trying to tell them no.

We were going round in circles. She's saying " no" but they claimed she didn't have capacity. Yet when the directive was produced they ignored it.

Eventually someone saw sense and they removed antibiotic drops and stopped the artificial feeding ( bear in mind this in now 10 days after stroke and she cannot still swallow water never mind eat)

She was able to thank them for stopping. Within 3 days after that she had passed away peacefully. She was 75.

Yet some people they keep on artificially feeding and pumping full of drugs when there is no quality of life. Mum wouldn't have wanted that simply to be alive but not living

What countries? certainly not in Europe, which have better social care but much higher taxes than the UK has.

This idea that family members can look after very poorly people is for the birds, do we want even more people to leave the workforce and have even greater immigration to make up the shortfall??

You need to look at the cuts in central govt funding to councils as to why we have terrible public services, its got nothing to do with adult social care, which has also been slashed and will be cut even further in order to pay for the recent £30 billion in tax cuts.

We could afford better health services in the 2000s, so there is zero reason why they should be so terrible now, its down choices, spend £170 billion on HS2 or fund social care?

Oh and then waste £29billion on starting a railway but then cancel it.....

But instead of blaming the Govt, we turn on the disabled, the sick and the elderly......

You’re articulating yourself really badly here. It’s fine to wonder what will happen, and it’s fine to be distressed at the issue. But don’t blame those who require social care for being alive and having their illnesses treated. Blame a government who can’t keep enough people in work to support an economy and who breed a failing birth rate – from failing schools so children do not leave school with any aspirations or enough education, to women who cannot afford to work because of childcare costs, to fostering a society of misogyny to keep women out of the workplace, to treating women so poorly that they do not want to have children at all, to make state services so poor that workers leave the country to live elsewhere, to letting billionaires escape with paying minimum tax while rinsing the poor until they are better off not working at all and claiming benefits instead.

But of course, blame people for being born and remaining alive.

More to who ?

@VestibuleVirgin why do you think that's bitchy?
My mum has always said she would go to Switzerland if terminally ill. She now has stage 4 cancer and plans to take her own life. But can barely walk to the front door without falling. It's horrible.