To think that people living longer is making quality of life for everyone worse?

@Sunnnybunny72 I definitely agree that people in his position should be able to refuse treatment if they wish. I know that my Dad (86) would if he received a similar diagnosis.

Could your FIL ask for just pain relief instead?

@EverythingYouDoIsaBalloon Oh for goodness sake. Don’t be so rude. People are entitled to their own opinion.

No one is proposing taking anyone out and shooting them. They are simply saying that if you can’t provide for yourself, and you have lived a very long life, there is a limit to what you should expect the state to provide for you. You may not agree with that but it is an entirely reasonable thing to say. It’s incredibly rude to call people “fucking sick” or whatever just because you don’t agree with their opinion.

I understand both points

This and that some over 85 may want treatment

It’s a really tricky one. I’m not sure what the answer is either

Yes. I work in care and some of the elderly folk I help are being kept going through huge amounts of medication and procedures with zero quality of life. I’ve had people tell me they don’t want to live anymore and it’s heartbreaking. I think the older people live the greater the chance of dementia also. I don’t know what the answer is though.

The government wants to kill anyone severely disabled or elderly through non treatment. You are 85 or severely disabled? Then why should we waste resources on you?
It is very alarming.

Not when the opinions are fucking sick, no. Disgusting

Not if their opinion is fucking sick.

Just had this happen with my MIL this weekend. She's got late stage Alzheimers. No recognition of me or my late DP for over four years. She's immobile, on a liquid diet, on meds for muscle contracture pain. I'm broadly in agreement that it's inhumane and she wanted to die when she still had awareness of her condition but capacity laws mean she couldn't off herself without help and anyone who helped her would be a murderer in effect.

Had a call on Sunday - she'd had a funny turn, paramedics were called out. I mean, it's essentially palliative now and she could go on for a few years yet. She won't be taken to hospital in emergency as she has a DNR unless it was a fracture situation, which is virtually impossible.

Because she followed all public health directives regarding diet, heart health cholesterol etc her physical health is reasonable, not withstanding the physical effects of dementia.

I'm POA. Every time the home ring up to confirm her Covid booster I say yes, because suffering with Covid would be grim and it might not kill her. A tiny bit if me hopes it causes a clot for quick despatch anyway.

The thing is no-one can know if the sunlight on the ceiling brings her joy or whether she has the tiniest bit of comprehension to be aware if "compassionate" imminent despatch on humane grounds. And call me a coward, I couldn't make that decision. It's a very nuanced situation. She's going to

I urge everyone who is blithely supporting assisted suicide/euthanasia to watch the documentary made by disabled actor Liz Carr 'Better off Dead?' which was shown on BBC1 last night.

Look out in particular for her interview with Lord Falconer, who reckons it should only be for those with terminal illnesses - and then the campaigner who is herself disabled who argues it should be widened to include people who are not suffering terminal illness. Look out also for the quite astonishing doctor in Canada who laughs and smiles all through her interview with Liz as she discusses how she loves her job - which is mostly approving and carrying out assisted suicide. Look out also for the man who was on disability benefits and made homeless, who got approved for assisted suicide because he was homeless (he was helped not to have to die by a big crowdfunding campaign).

It's all quite shocking.

But you say anyone over 85 should not have treatment. How is that not sick?

If the care home say they will not take them back because of ill health, the NHS has no choice. Your relative can refuse all treatment.
There is an issue with some care homes calling ambulances rather than treating people in homes. It is simply to save money.

Well I for one agree with @ChristmasGutPunch

Can people not have an opinion on here without being called “fucking sick”?

It was the NHS that was admitting them to hospital when they didn’t want to be there…

Totally agree. My gran had a hip replacement at 92 and lived another mobile 5 years.

84 and 11 months falls over and breaks a hip - you may have surgery.
85 years and 1 month does the same - you won’t die right now but you’ll suffer terribly until you do. Probably cost more too!

That is unusual. People that are bed bound usually die from pneumonia.
People on nursing care homes only have a 12 months life expectancy.

I think when you get older you see more suffering and become more pragmatic.

I help look after a much loved uncle. Mid 80s

He has been in agony for months since his GP diagnosed a broken bone in his back as arthritis.

He has been admitted to hospital 3 times and each time sent home without his pain being managed beyond a six.

They discharged him on Friday and he hasn’t gone to bed or eaten since.

His stomach is distended from impaction which the hospital should have sorted. This impaction puts pressure on his lower spine which adds to the pain.

He has an inoperable brain tumour and severe headaches.

He sits in his chair bent over forwards all day and cannot get into his bed.

If the health services were perfect he would still suffer.

Pain killers kill the pain and cause constipation which causes impaction.

Every day he is in agony. He does not want to go on.

For those who are now going to dispense medical advice I say don’t bother.

Nothing you say or fantasise (ie a really caring system) will come to fruition.

Why do people want others to suffer?

Fucking hell. That's sick. You should be fucking ashamed of yourself.

You have a vested interest, so of course you’d rather children like your son drain the taxpayer.
The older tax payer drains cannot be killed off so if previously independent 80 year old Mabel breaks her hip and remains cared for in bed until she dies - who will ensure she is washed and brought food? Shall we let her starve to death?

(Edit to add - “tax payer drains” is sarcasm in case my tone is misread!)

I am currently in the midst of a what is the point dilemma.
My mum is 81, extremely frail with copd and diagnosed with clinical anorexia. She is now in a care home and only able to move with a zimmer and when she does Dan only go 20 feet before needing to stop as she is so breathless. She has a DNR and when she has an infection needs serious high levels of antibiotics to knock it on the head and some of these now fail.
anyway she fell over at the weekend and broke her hip, but we were amazed at the readiness the nhs were willing to mend her hip. To be honest it is really unlikely she is ever going to regain mobility even with major rehab as she doesn’t eat, weighs 27kg and has no muscle strength.
I love her dearly but can’t help thinking what a waste of resources…. And I feel bad saying that but there wasn’t any discussion. Think everyone is so scared of broaching these difficult issues.

People who are bed bound with dementia are living their own reality, one that we do not understand. It does not mean they are sub-human or not worth the effort which seems to be the attitude of any posts.

@ChristmasGutPunch what a foolish question to ask, as if it is in any way a valid response to my argument. I could be a carer already, I could be volunteering for Age UK, I could be disabled and have a carer myself, I could be 19 or 90...

I think it depends on what hasn't been given.

My father had Parkinsons and had a fall and never walked again. But I think the reason for that was the fact that he had no physio and was left to stiffen up in a hospital bed. Once he was discharged, he was bedbound until he died. I do think if he had had physio things might have been different. Now people might say that physio is a finite resource and needs to go on the working aged population and I think that's fair. But they also need to consider whether spending the time on some physio would have left him still able to walk and look after himself and therefore save six months of care home bills. Maybe he would have fallen again, but maybe he would have died before that happened.

I think writing off the reasonably well elderly can be a false economy. But when someone has advanced dementia and no quality of life, they should be allowed to fade away.

A relative of my husband's was bed bound with advanced dementia for four years. A friend's granny had a stroke, could no longer speak and was bed bound for ten years.

What on earth was the point? People are not advocating killing the elderly off when they reach 80, but we shouldn't be prolonging life when there is absolutely no point in it. In fact in the latter case above I'd say it is actively cruel. At least my husband's relative didn't know what was going on.

Ok and will you be front of the queue to take some shifts as a care worker?