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They/them pronouns in primary school workbooks

136 replies

KellyMaureen · 13/05/2024 13:25

I've been asked to review some resources for kids about autism. It takes the form of a workbook for primary school kids. There are two characters who are twins, one with a unisex name which is usually always spelled the same, and the other with a name that can be used for boys or girls but is spelled the usual way you would spell it for a boy. Both dressed exactly the same except for different coloured T-shirts.

Both these kids have they/them pronouns in this workbook. Is this now the norm? Will there come a time when there is no he/she? This is what this feels like. I wanted to ask that question in feedback, but I'm unsure how to give my feedback without sounding inappropriate. AIBU about this?

What are your thoughts please? This is a genuine question, and something I only feel comfortable asking anonymously so please don't accuse me of goading. I don't want to cause trouble. Thank you.

OP posts:
5128gap · 14/05/2024 17:33

Melroses · 14/05/2024 11:08

It is amazing how old children can be before they realise that their friends who are twins are not a 'unit' but are individuals. This book adds to the confusion.

I would bin it.

This is true. I remember well my DS in reception referring to identical twins as 'the two Jackenarries' sometimes shortened to 'the two Jacks'. Which was a bit harsh on Harry. I really don't think calling them (plural) them (singular) would have helped.

ScrollingLeaves · 14/05/2024 17:22

Stevie is going to be very confused they read this book.

KellyMaureen · 14/05/2024 17:16

Thank you everyone for your comments. It really is concerning for me. I will take all your comments on board.

Just to update, there was also a similar workbook for ADHD. This featured 'superheroes' and the characters here were two different cartoon animals. We don't know their sex. They were dressed in superhero outfits and conversing with each other. They talk about a postman, and say "Imagine him delivering thousands of letters on his own" and the postman is referred to as he/him. I don't have any concerns about this workbook.

In the autism book, we have (in addition to the examples I have given already)

"Sometimes Stevie can get worried when they don’t know what’s going to happen in the future"
"Stevie's mum needs to go to the shops after school. Stevie didn’t expect this, so they start to feel nervous. Mum knows that Stevie will be calmer if they have something to keep them busy"

OP posts:
Doingmybest12 · 14/05/2024 16:58

WarriorN · 14/05/2024 16:18

I went to a wonderful puppet show where the main character was an acorn. It was referred to as they but I felt that was somewhat ok, if a little confusing as it wasn't human. Though the oak tree was referred to as mother.

I could understand the argument to not define its sex within that context - as it was an acorn.

Surely the acorn is 'it' and doesn't need any pronoun.

Lovelyview · 14/05/2024 16:36

It's bloody awful, deeply confusing and grammatically incorrect. The only explanation is that the characters are meant to be non binary and teaching gender ideology in schools is not a neutral act. The government has recently issued new guidelines which state gender ideology is a contested belief not a fact. This is following The Cass Report which identified that gender affirmation in schools was also not a neutral act and especially affected children with ASD who might latch on to being 'non binary' or the opposite 'gender' as an explanation for why they feel different from their peers. I would suggest this is extremely damaging and should be raised as an issue of extreme concern. Non binary is a completely unscientific descriptor based on vague feelings about gender and has absolutely no place in education.

MimiGC · 14/05/2024 16:24

If you think it is pushing a belief system that not everyone subscribes to (and it sounds like it is), then that is what you should say in your review. You have been asked to give your opinion, so if you think the book could easily confuse young children, you should say so, with examples.

WarriorN · 14/05/2024 16:18

I went to a wonderful puppet show where the main character was an acorn. It was referred to as they but I felt that was somewhat ok, if a little confusing as it wasn't human. Though the oak tree was referred to as mother.

I could understand the argument to not define its sex within that context - as it was an acorn.

WarriorN · 14/05/2024 16:14

I've been teaching autistic children for nearly 20 years; this does not sound helpful or appropriate.

Many have specific speech and language difficulties. We spend a lot of time with some directly teaching which pronouns to use for men and women, boys and girls.

(Sorry not rtft. I'm very fucked off to read this )

ScrollingLeaves · 14/05/2024 14:28

lifeturnsonadime · 14/05/2024 13:06

It's a load of nonsense.

Non binary is meaningless anyway.

Imagine confusing children (and making grammar more difficult) for the sake of something that isn't real.

Honestly whoever is writing these books and pushing them on children in the name of trans ideology ought to be ashamed of themselves.

Quite. Whatever your sex you may be more or less masculine or feminine than any ‘type’.

Everyone is non-binary in this sense, even though their sex remains immutable, and even when they are attracted to people of the same sex.

tennesseewhiskey1 · 14/05/2024 14:22

God that is so confusing, poor children.

Tosstyhat · 14/05/2024 14:19

My son with ASD struggled with pronouns so could definitely do with them being gender specific. It's a target from his speech and language therapist. I can't imagine this being uncommon. Two birds with one stone and all that.

BabyRaindeer · 14/05/2024 14:12

I reckon in 20 years time we will be using slang words like 'hizhers'

Stevie took hizhers jumper off

takemeawayagain · 14/05/2024 14:01

Non binary is just a load of attention seeking crap isn't it? I don't feel very male or female - well no, nor does anyone, you still are though if you look between your legs. Most people don't give the social construct that is gender any thought, other naval gazers need to find a way to make themselves feel special.

'Stevie does things that might confuse people.' He/she's not wrong about that!
Exactly how many primary age children are there 'identifying' as NB? Why would you write a book about non binary kids for autistic kids where the pronouns are just nonsense and are likely to completely confuse them?

In feedback I'd ask, 'Is this book aimed at non-binary autistic children? If not why are both characters in it using non-binary pronouns which may confuse autistic readers who are not familiar with the alternative meaning of plural pronouns?'

It sounds like a patronising pile of gender woo shite that my autistic ds would have given a major swerve. Maybe don't say that though.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 14/05/2024 13:31

lifeturnsonadime · 14/05/2024 13:08

Yes there is definitely an over representation of autistic children identifying as trans.

it's horrific and abusive that adults are going along with it.

I'm the mother of an autistic daughter who thought she was a boy pre-puberty. Now post puberty she's quietly dropped it.

I could weep for these children. Just awful.

It can't be emphasised too much how sinister all this is.
Why are there so many girls with eating disorders, mentally unwell children, children in care, autistic children, bereaved children believing they've been born in the wrong body? And why has society allowed so many self invested adults to earn money off the backs of these vulnerable children by selling them the lie that their bodies are flawed but a sex change will fix them. A massive gravy train that the same adults are desperate to maintain.

Wake up people. Pronouns are part of gaslighting children (and adults) into believing the impossible - that anyone can change sex.

And if you haven't yet, go and read the well evidenced Cass Review and look at what we're doing to children and vulnerable young people

KeinLiebeslied54321 · 14/05/2024 13:09

The grammar pedant in me simply goes 😮at this.

I feel like the book needs a glossary which they need to go over first:

He - singular him, one person
She - singular her, one person
They - plural, more than one person OR also used when a singular person doesn't want to call themselves he or she

Not ideal.

lifeturnsonadime · 14/05/2024 13:08

MrsOvertonsWindow · 14/05/2024 11:13

When you say "There is an over representation of non-binary and trans people in the Autistic community", we're talking about children here. There's now significant research that these children think they've been born in the wrong sex because they've been relentlessly targeted by adults & adult groups insisting that their complex feelings about their growing bodies is because those bodies are the wrong sex but drugs & surgery can fix them.

Pronouns and mangling children's understanding of language are all part of this. It's an appalling abuse of children too young to comprehend the issues around the impossible to achieve "sex change" and no reposbnsible adults should be advocating for this.

The recent Cass Review details some of the grim outcomes for children caught up in all this:

Yes there is definitely an over representation of autistic children identifying as trans.

it's horrific and abusive that adults are going along with it.

I'm the mother of an autistic daughter who thought she was a boy pre-puberty. Now post puberty she's quietly dropped it.

I could weep for these children. Just awful.

lifeturnsonadime · 14/05/2024 13:06

It's a load of nonsense.

Non binary is meaningless anyway.

Imagine confusing children (and making grammar more difficult) for the sake of something that isn't real.

Honestly whoever is writing these books and pushing them on children in the name of trans ideology ought to be ashamed of themselves.

ScrollingLeaves · 14/05/2024 13:03

heathspeedwell · 14/05/2024 10:59

It's just propaganda. This trend for misleading vulnerable young people into thinking they can change sex is harming them mentally. It will also harm them physically if they go on to take experimental drugs like puberty blockers and cross sex hormones.

In your shoes I would point out that in light of the Cass review you think the approach of this book is not just outdated but also dangerous.

I would not want to collude in the biggest medical scandal of our age, especially since the Cass review highlighted that gender questioning girls currently outnumber gender questioning boys six to one. It's very clearly not like being gay or left handed.

As linguistically confusing given twins may be seen as ‘they’ too.

ScrollingLeaves · 14/05/2024 13:01

MrsOvertonsWindow · 14/05/2024 11:13

When you say "There is an over representation of non-binary and trans people in the Autistic community", we're talking about children here. There's now significant research that these children think they've been born in the wrong sex because they've been relentlessly targeted by adults & adult groups insisting that their complex feelings about their growing bodies is because those bodies are the wrong sex but drugs & surgery can fix them.

Pronouns and mangling children's understanding of language are all part of this. It's an appalling abuse of children too young to comprehend the issues around the impossible to achieve "sex change" and no reposbnsible adults should be advocating for this.

The recent Cass Review details some of the grim outcomes for children caught up in all this:

Yes, this is right. Autistic children are being transed by adults.

So are potentially gay children, traumatised and abused children.

WhiffyTheWizard · 14/05/2024 11:44

Pleiades2020 · 14/05/2024 10:23

I said less, not none. It would be a step, one of many.

I still think you're going after entirely the wrong culprit, though.

It isn't standard grammar that's oppressing women.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 14/05/2024 11:13

JLou08 · 13/05/2024 21:58

Yes, we are heading towards this as a norm now. I think people need to just roll with the times and accept it. Children aren't confused by it, it's older people that are. Just like children aren't confused that there can be same sex relationships and families. When I was growing up I thought nothing of same sex relationships but adults were in uproar thinking that allowing children to know about it will confuse us.
Some people can be mistaken for the wrong gender even when they are the gender they are born with, especially young children so I think avoiding he/she isn't the worst thing. A lot of young children dress in neutral clothing so I tend to avoid saying boy or girl just in case.
There is an over representation of non-binary and trans people in the Autistic community, that may be why it is relevant to a book about Autism. The reasons for the over representation aren't clear but I would guess it has something to do with Autistic people generally doing their own thing rather than being hung up on social norms. Wouldn't life be easier for all of us if we could just be who we truly want to be without worrying about fitting in or people thinking we are strange.

When you say "There is an over representation of non-binary and trans people in the Autistic community", we're talking about children here. There's now significant research that these children think they've been born in the wrong sex because they've been relentlessly targeted by adults & adult groups insisting that their complex feelings about their growing bodies is because those bodies are the wrong sex but drugs & surgery can fix them.

Pronouns and mangling children's understanding of language are all part of this. It's an appalling abuse of children too young to comprehend the issues around the impossible to achieve "sex change" and no reposbnsible adults should be advocating for this.

The recent Cass Review details some of the grim outcomes for children caught up in all this:

pexels-photo-214576.jpeg

Summary of Cass Review

Introduction Dr Hilary Cass, former President of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, was asked by NHS England and NHS Improvement to chair an independent review and make recommendati…

https://can-sg.org/2024/04/28/summary-of-cass-review

Melroses · 14/05/2024 11:08

It is amazing how old children can be before they realise that their friends who are twins are not a 'unit' but are individuals. This book adds to the confusion.

I would bin it.

heathspeedwell · 14/05/2024 10:59

It's just propaganda. This trend for misleading vulnerable young people into thinking they can change sex is harming them mentally. It will also harm them physically if they go on to take experimental drugs like puberty blockers and cross sex hormones.

In your shoes I would point out that in light of the Cass review you think the approach of this book is not just outdated but also dangerous.

I would not want to collude in the biggest medical scandal of our age, especially since the Cass review highlighted that gender questioning girls currently outnumber gender questioning boys six to one. It's very clearly not like being gay or left handed.

KellyMaureen · 14/05/2024 10:57

LilyBartsHatShop · 14/05/2024 06:22

@KellyMaureen you can see from this thread that if you do recommend changes to the text some people will disparage you as a pearl-clutching harridan. But, if you're willing to wear that, and if those are quotes from the text you've posted and not paraphrases, I think you should raise concerns about clarity for the sake of the children this resource is supposed to benefit.
Could you put it in terms of being concerned that assumptions that a child with ASD could only relate to a character of his or her own sex is buying into some of the worst beliefs about autism?

They are quotes, exactly as they appear yes.

OP posts: