AIBU - motherhood has ruined men for me

I agree

I'll never forget a thread a few years back by a man who worked all hours at his business while his wife did all the parenting to the point of burn out. He mentioned being disappointed that his wife didn't want to have more kids. I think I replied kindly but I was definitely thinking JFC at how fucking oblivious he was.

hahahahahahahahahahaha. No. That is usually not what happens. Men are more likely to want a baby than a woman is. You can see this in surveys they have done, but you can also see this in how hard women fight for birth control, and for tubals, even though vasectomies are way easier and cheaper. If men really didn't want children, they would do something about it. They do want children, most just don't want to take care of children.

Hands-on dad. You’re right. Compare with the words mother’ and ‘father’ used as verbs. ‘Mothering’ a child very different from ‘fathering’ a child. 😡

So this used to be my DH attitude. So we sat down and each said if and how often things needed doing and what standard. For example, he didn’t clean the bathroom because he ‘didn’t care’ but actually did believe it should be cleaned once a week. Would care if it started to get disgusting and smelly. We set mutually agreed standards and frequencies. He still struggles to put full effort in and resents it because he doesn’t want to do it really. Well neither does anybody!

If you lived alone would you still wash your clothes, dry your clothes, clean your toilet, cook food, clean up afterwards. If you were the sole parent would you care they had clean uniform, a healthy lunch, good extracurricular activities?

Read Fair Play by Eve Rodesky and look back and see if your view of your contribution is right. You may, unknowingly, have internalised the mysoginistic view that these tasks are not worthy of attention as they had traditionally been ‘women’s work’.

I really enjoyed the sulking thread. You're kind of right, I think, in that women would have the piss ripped right out of them by their friends and family, if they sulked like that, whereas I don't know whether it's the same for men.

A man who does a supermarket shop incompetently still garners a bit of praise from outsiders for doing it at all, it appears. No-one pays any attention at all to all the diverse domestic shit that women administer all the time....

It is implied. If the woman hadn’t pushed for a baby…

It's called weapomised incompetence and ya have fallen for it hook line and sinker, of course your hubby is capable of getting the kids ready in the morning instead of you getting up early, ridiculous to even consider he can't.

This is why I choose to be single, I want a partner to share life's burden not a 40 year old baby who I jave to look after

Why do women set the bar so low?

100% agree but what always blows my mind is why anyone puts up with it! Why are we allowed to get away scott free basically being an overgrown child? The bar is set so low that the world heralds us as heros when we do the smallest thing. I'm a parent, so I parent - it's my job. To be honest that's why I find advice on Mumsnet so helpful (and often feel guilty for invading this space) as I really don't know a single dad friend who truly parents besides the fun stuff. It's really quite lonely as their and my experience don't match. A bit like having conversation with someone who has a 24/7 live in nanny about the ups and downs of parenting! I guess, that's basically what they all have!

I had a baby/young child with a partner and then had one without a partner. Being a single parent is 100% less soul destroying. Even good men just aren't good enough.

A clear and honest post. This is exactly what I said in an earlier post about men not placing the same value on certain tasks that women do.

Another real issue for me is how single dads are idolised. When a single dad with joint custody of their child is seen doing the school run etc people seem to comment on how dedicated they are. Single mums however, carry a stigma that they are unable to keep relationships and probably claim benefits.

This resonates for me. At DS school was a man whose wife had very sadly died and he was a single parent to 2 children. Obviously, an extraordinarily difficult situation. When I met the family, his wife had died 2 years previously, but I noticed how many families were still providing routine support/help to him in a way that just doesn't happen for women. My issue wasn't so much that he shouldn't get that support, more just that I found it frustrating that no woman gets that support long term.

I think the root of this is poor emotional / social intelligence relative to women. Largely related to culture / patriarchy and also possibly a biological element (influence of testosterone?).

It is interesting that women are viewed as the vulnerable sex - physically we are but in a modern world with machinery and computing it is emotional and social intelligence that are in the greatest demand to meet the world's challenges. And in terms of intrinsic factors it is a lack of these qualities that stunts and shortens lives. Through poor mental health, violence (which rarely benefits the perpetrator), and self neglect (particularly emotional / social but also physical).

Who is more likely to commit suicide?
Who is more likely to commit a violent crime?
Who is more likely to abandon healthy habits?
Who is more likely to struggle to connect emotionally with their loved ones (with all the countless benefits that entails)?
Who is more likely to struggle to cope or even neglect their own immediate physical needs (in old age) if the other spouse died?

I suspect the answer to each of these questions is your husband, and on nearly every male-female partnership it will be the male.

This is why as we (hopefully) continue to dismantle the ways in which the patriarchy holds women back as the emotional and social support beings of men(!), there is a growing number of men who feel disadvantaged, vulnerable, lost. It's the whole basis of the men's rights movement. Some men are constructively looking at how to improve men's emotional and social self sufficiency in response to this, MRA's blame feminism and want things "back how they were".

Of course there are men with high EQ out there and likewise many women with low EQ.

I have sons and I'm really trying to emphasise connecting to their emotions, naming their emotions, compassion, empathy etc because I think they are going to need extra help with emotional and social intelligence due to being male in our culture. I want them to one day experience a true love and equal partnership with a woman (or a man!) that isn't rooted in emotional and social dependency.

I wonder if this was better tolerated in the past because mums were more likely to have their own mothers and female relatives helping out with the kids. A lot of us have none of that but many men expect to carry on the same way their own dads did with them.

totally agree, OP.
I am childfree by choice for this reason- I know I would essentially be taking on all of the mental load of parenting whether I’m a single mum or not, and I’m not willing to do that with my life.

This is a real societal issue. The fact that the term ‘hands on dad’ even exists just proves how low the bar really is.

I have not once heard anyone refer to a mum as ‘hands on’ because they are doing what is expected of them. Men get let off the hook so easily.

When my sister had her son, her mother in law always preached to her about how lucky she was that her partner looked after the baby FOR HER so that she could go for a run. It really beggars belief.

Another real issue for me is how single dads are idolised. When a single dad with joint custody of their child is seen doing the school run etc people seem to comment on how dedicated they are. Single mums however, carry a stigma that they are unable to keep relationships and probably claim benefits.

I could rant about this all day but luckily I’m due to start work. I’m sorry this is your experience OP, you are absolutely not alone.

My XH worked for an environmental company - surveying drains etc. often he would tell stories of when he had to be wading through raw sewage to get a job done and yet he couldn’t change a nappy without retching. This was so hilarious to me.

This is a bit of a piece of string situation though I think. I mean, there are things DH cares more about than me and vice versa so we take on those responsibilities - eg he has a much lower tolerance for general untidiness than me so he is far more likely to spend time doing tidying to a level I consider unnecessary on a day to day basis. But if you ask him, he will concede that if I am the one doing the tidying, I have not left the house in a total tip, just not to his level.

Similarly, he has a much higher tolerance for a relatively boring and basic diet than me. So I take on the bulk of cooking and meal planning. But, if I am away for a few days, I know perfeclty well that not only will everyone be fed, but they will eat relatively healthily with fruit/veggies included. Just not to my standards.

Which is completely different to, for example, the man who doesn't really care about cooking so his children eat mcdonalds and pizza every day when his wife is away or who thinks is wife's standards are too high so happily leaves floors to get to the point that they are sticky.

Some women, my sister is one, do more housework than is necessary, to a higher standard than id necessary and then slag off their husband for not doing the same.

Some men, my next door neighbour, do sod all because they are lazy

I feel for you on this. But I hate to say it, but I think this is the difference between a good man who just has been brought up/socialised to think one way and a man who is actively choosing to be crap.

I've had almost identical situations with my DH in the past right up until the "I flipped" becuase at that point, he actually stops to think about his shitty uselessness, is mortified, FINALLy realises he's being a dick, and changes his behaviour. In your case, clearly that did not happen. Which I'm sorry to say is a very bad sign.

It's not all men (my DH is a better "mum" than me! Usually more organised than me, takes on as much mental load and general house-related admin, and perfectly capable of looking after our kids for extended periods of time without any assistance) but it does seem like it's a large proportion of them

PREACH!!!

Sorry but can I ask what he actually does around the house that contributes to your life together?

He does care for me in his own way. My midwife butchered me when it came to removing the staples he protect me then n took me to hospital after 45 minutes of agony the staples were removed with help of gas n air then the infection happened. I almost died with sepsis since then I have a phobia of doctors n hospitals he always goes with me now. Always tells me to rest and when I was out cold from the c sections and infections he did all the nappy changes fed the babies bought a £125 breast pump for my mastitis and made sure I pumped to get the infected milk out. Yes men are useless most times but mine was there for me when I was at brink of death. Cut me lose when I couldny take the pain anymore and was about to commit suicide. Now 5 years later I can look back way when it mattered he was my rock.