AIBU - motherhood has ruined men for me

The reason why I post is because it's yet another thread undermining relationships and attacking boys who eventually turn into men.

I have screen shotted this thread, Dp wrote back housework is easy people should stop moaning.

@Myb were you trying to say that women are better at organising etc. based on genetics?

I think not. I can tell you why it seems like they are better at it: because they get trained as girls to be dutiful, do everything to standard and look after others. It's the misogyny in society and even at home that trains them to be like that. My own mother was sexist towars me, her daughter, whilst my brother was held to a much lower standard. It shows now: he thinks mainly of himself.

I'm glad that you don't have this issue and that you are indeed equal partners. But I hope that you realise that you and your Nigel are in the happy minority.

We have 4 children between us.
We both have sole custody, both are high earners, nether uses child care.
I fuss and serve my boys, he has a great routine with his children he isn't compelled to do acts of service for his children especially now they're older.
His home is meticulously clean as is mine.

I’m so relieved to find this comment thank fuck

I started skim ready and wanted to weep. Of f ing course an ICU consultant can get his kids ready for a day trip don’t be so ridiculous! It’s a choice he makes not to! Doofus dad yet highly capable in the office - make it make sense

Some of these comments are rage inducing

My DH and I split things 50/50 because he’d be out otherwise

I know only two types of women:

Those who earn or work fewer hours than their men and therefore do more of the housework and childcare
Those who earn more or work the same hours as their men and still do more of the housework and childcare.

I am in the first category. I dont know anyone who has a 50-50 arrangement. Maybe I have a very limited circle.

You seem perplexed that a patriarchal society influences the assumptions of both men and women. We are all raised in a society where the overwhelming message is that childcare and housework are women's jobs.

"It's women who brought up these boys". FFS. If the majority of the influence over a boy is coming from his mother, then the chances are that's because there's a father who's stepped back and done a half-arsed job. And both of them are assuming those roles because we live in a patriarchal society.

There are some half-arsed jobs that are indeed rooted in demanding that someone cleans the oven as frequently as you think it should be done. But there are others, like making sure there's enough food in the cupboard so your kids can have a packed lunch for school, that's either done properly or isn't.

How many kids do you have and how much effort do you put in to parenting them?

The nits mousse's don't do anything. Regular combing or a nit specialist can rid the child of nits. Especially now the nits have become resistant to chemicals like Derbac M.
I've never lived with a man and seen what you're describing.
Are you saying in all the times the dishes have been done by yourself they've all been done perfectly?
DP vacs his 3-bed apartment twice a day.
He washes crockery, glasses, and cutlery separately.
He washes clothes on a 35-minute cycle and dries 5-6 loads all in one day.

Am I expected to manage my household like that when we, live together?

Some people are controlling. Society is women and men so at least 50% of this can be blamed on women.

I love comments like these. There's a great tik tok video with a woman who talks about this. She makes the point that often when men don't do the job to the same standard, it causes chaos that is inevitably a negative impact for everyone. Which is so true.

A half assed job is when DH tidies the kitchen but leaves all the pots on the stove instead of putting them away so I have to put them away before I can use the stove. Or when he's finished the washing up but hasn't bothered to wipe down any surfaces. It's when he vacuums but doesn't bother to do the corners so there are still cobwebs and dust all over the place. It's when he packs the DC's bag for a day out but there are no spare clothes or insufficient nappies. It's when I ask him to set the table when we have people over and he puts out knives, forks and place mats but no glasses, no salt and pepper, no napkins, no boards for hot dishes etc so I'm serving up and having to rush in and out of the kitchen to get these things. x 1000 when I ask him to set the table because we'll be eating in 20 minutes and he only starts setting it in 19 minutes.

In my DH's case, these are all things that he's learnt are not okay and stopped doing (except the table. I've now delegated table setting to DD - she's slow, but she gets it all done and provides clear instructions for DH), but lots and lots of women are dealing with this level of incompetence daily.

@CypressSunflower you are ME! This 100%. DH used to have a fair bit of time at home alone (not working) as well as quite a bit of time at home with the primary-school aged DC (he was primary carer). In those days, he did more of the laundry as he was around more as I was working mostly out of the house. However, I still put quite a few loads on and would hang up as needed. The number of times he'd be doign washing at 10pm at night, clearly feeling hard done by.... I learnt to ignore him and carry on watching TV because there really was NO reason he couldn't hve spent 5 minutes putting washing on in the morning, and 15 minutes hanging it up whlie the DC were lurking in their rooms. If he couldnt' be organised enough, not my problem.

He is quite often responsible for unloading the online shop these days. it takes him FOREVER. I just cannot work out wat the problem is. But I just let him get on with it and refuse to try to compensate for the fact that he's been doign chores for 2 hours - those exact same chores could be done by me in 45 minutes. And if it takes him 2 hours every time, eventually he's going to learn how to do it faster if he realises I'm not going to step in and solve this for him. (the only rider I will add is that I'm pretty sure that DS' inattentive ADHD is 100% inherited from DH and, in turn, from MIL so as a family, they do have form for this).

A half assessed job is;

Youve washed up there is still gunk on the crocs.

You’ve wiped down the surfaces but left dirty pots in the sink and call it ‘cleaning the kitchen’

Its paying half attention to what the kids need for school so you miss several things meaning they miss out on things.

It’s not doing the second dose of nit mousse so the nits return and reinfect the whole class.

I could go on. This isn’t about fussiness. This is about a lack of application and effort because they see it as of little value because society has previously taught us it is ‘just women’s work’.

Yes. Very similar. You are right re how long it takes and the need for gratitude. I take literally a quarter of the time to do household chores to a good standard. And then I feel bad that he’s still working at these things when I’ve done my bits and am sat down. But I crack on, focus and have put effort into doing it efficiently. He potters, listening to something or watching something. Stands staring into space. So now if I find myself with the urge to help I don’t. He could do it quicker and then sit down but he prefers to do it laconically. His choice. Mine is to put effort into doing it all quickly so I can then chill.

There are posters on this thread blaming men or the patriarchy. Yet the logical conclusion if women are doing the majority of the family work. It's women who have brought up these boys and led them to be the men that are being complained about.

What is a half-assed job? It's just controlling to demand others mirror your actions. It's odd.

I agree. And as a mother I didn’t intrinsically know what to do. I put the first nappy on back to front. You learn. Like with anything. But to learn, you have to apply yourself and it’s that attitude of seeing it as unworthy of effort that gets in the way. My DH used to ask my why I was so tired when I’d had two days off (working part time) and I used to question myself. Until I realised I never had a day off. I’d be lucky to get an hour. But the crucial bit here is that he didn’t see it as work. And that’s why his efforts were always half arsed - he was relaxing and ‘pottering’ not applying himself to the invisible, unpaid, undervalued daily grind that keeps the world ticking along, because he’d been unconsciously socialised to see it as lesser as it had historically been ‘just women’s work’.

I dont think i have ever read anything more true.

This is not dissimilar to us. The only time we have ever, even in the heat of a major argument, even vaguelly mentioned the word divorce was after an epic meltdown when, having ignored the vacuuming that he'd promised me would be HIS job for weeks, DH then did a particularly half assed job AND took 4 hours to do it. 4 hours and clearly expected me to drop to my knees in gratitude once it was complete* *I was furious. He was furious with me and how I was "controlling" him etc. This had all been building up over months, of course, at a tough time - Covid etc.

It took a lot of work and effort for us to get past that ridiculous moment but the result is a much happier and less overwhelmed me. Sometimes I amost feel bad for DH because there's absolutely no doubt that his life is notably harder now than it was before while mine is notably easier. But that's because he's actually (mostly) doing his share now AND has taken on at least some of the mental load. On the plus side, I don't have any of the passive aggressive comments you're getting. That would drive me mad.

That is definitely a problem, but it's not the problem. The problem is that childcare, housework etc is seen by society as women's work. So the men can slack off and know that the women will pick up after us because that's what they're there for.

Amazingly, when I became a full-time single father I discovered that I could do all the organising, planning, and running of the household without needing ovaries. Who knew!?

It's not that women are naturally better at it. It's that society tells us that it's women's work. None of it is massively difficult. There's just lots of little things that need to be done and that takes planning which requires you to give a shit.

The one thing I would say is that it also entails making mistakes and learning from them. If you've never had to pack a bag for a day out with the kids then the first time you do it you might overlook the need for water and a snack. Spend a day out with the kids where you discover just how miserable it can get when they're hungry and thirsty, and you learn to pack better next time. Women aren't born knowing this and neither are men. It has to be learned.

Of course transwomen don’t start to ‘see mess’ and assume domestic responsibility!

YANBU. Your post sums up one of the reasons why I divorced my exh. He really saw us having DC as his chance to gain an unpaid maid. Several of my friends have also found similar once they have had children. I think in most cases these men are perfectly capable of caring for their children, as you say your DH is a ICU consultant, and my exh also had a very high pressured job (as do I), however certainly in my case he seemed to feel that caring for his child was beneath him.

‘Tell him his penis shouldn’t get in the way of him learning and a uterus and breasts aren’t neural organs in charge of certain knowledge.’

I agree that the ‘patriarchy’ is largely to blame, in that society and more importantly, the early years’ upbringing fix the attitudes which are underlying the ‘weaponised incompetence. ‘

OTOH I have lived with the same man for forty years, before we got together he had been to University and then had a flat on his own for seven years ( it was staggeringly untidy though fairly clean). He now does clean the kitchen to a high standard , quite often unprompted, he does ‘ his jobs’ ditto. He does all the finances and utilities, I was perfectly competent at it but I find it mind -numbingly boring except when things go wrong and then it’s distressing. However, he still needs a list of shopping and reminding about non routine tasks. His room is not as clean / tidy as the rest of the house. He just doesn’t see it or doesn’t care. I do believe this is innate.

I wonder though whether there is some hormonal difference relative to our functions and roles at the base biological level. With recent developments, it might be possible to examine this? How do trans men ( natal females who take testosterone) who are in relationships with women behave re the mental load ? Do estrogen taking transwomen start to ‘see mess’ and assume more domestic responsibility?

Windbags? Wow.

OK. As you were.

Indeed. If you are washing up and there is still dried soap suds mingled with tomato sauce on the plate, that’s below the minimum standard most people would accept.

I was recommended (and now should really get commission as I recommend it all the time) Eve Rodesky’s fair play on a thread I started a few years ago. It’s on audible and you can get the jist just from the website and videos. She suggests having mutually agreed standards. I did similar with DH before I read her book and was amazed that despite his protestations of ‘I don’t care’ we actually, mostly, agreed on how frequently certain tasks needed doing.

But that’s just the point isn’t it. They CAN do it but don’t want to. Have been raised to believe it’s all beneath them.

And mostly it is don’t want to, rather than can’t.

My DH has now nailed keeping track of what DC need for school each day because I stepped back and let him fail. It meant a few missed things for the kids (one left him crying with guilt, and I felt awful about it all too (DC fine with it all)) but now it hardly ever happens. He’s applying himself to it.

But it’s like this because I hit rock bottom. I burnt out trying to hold down a ‘very important’ job and keep everything else going after mat leave. It took years of me crying, talking it through, educating him about the ‘mental load’ (thank you Eve Rodesky), and eventually saying I needed us to separate, for him to truly step up.

And having now dropped lots of the mental load, the view from the other side is bloody amazing!! My head is free to be creative. I have energy for hobbies. I’m so much more relaxed.

But I still have the ‘I have cleaned the kitchen’ when there are still dirty things in the sink, and the ‘I am doing this for you because I don’t care’ when we have mutually agreed minimum standards.

Why? Because he really doesn’t want to do it. He doesn’t want to use up his mental and physical energy on the daily grind. Not many people do!

Lol. Place marking for a proper read later