AIBU - motherhood has ruined men for me

I don’t recognise this in my husband, but we also did shared parental leave so he had a few months of sole responsibility.

I don't know how to vote because I don't think it's all men - there are competent men who can do all the childcare stuff just as well, don't let their emotions rule and don't need to phone during a supermarket shop. I am married to one - he is probably more competent at life stuff than me overall as I have ADHD.

I do think this is unfortunately a minority of men. So many of them are so casually dependent on female labour, in the background exactly as you say. And it becomes extremely visible after motherhood, which is why I think MN is a fairly feminist space overall.

I only met DH after having DC1 and I don't think I could have identified these traits in him before having had a child. You just don't know what to look for until then, then you see it absolutely everywhere and it's astounding.

My DH was always lazy on the housework front before we had children - I should have put my foot down then, but didn't. When our first came along, he was decent on the parenting side of things, but continued to be useless on the housework side- it didn't matter too much as DS was the most chilled baby ever and I was briefly a SAHM so I could do pretty much all of it myself. Then our second came along. She was not a good sleeper and would not have a bottle. I think DH became depressed and his brain reverted back to factory settings - ie he modelled what he saw with his own parents which was his 'don't mind me' mother running around being a martyr while his dad sat on his arse and barked MIL's name every now and again like she was a dog. He just checked out of anything to do with the kids or home. I was severely depressed but I couldn't check out of course - for women parenting just isn't optional. After about 18 months of this shit I said it was time for a divorce.

Thankfully (after some time) DH got his shit together and I would say now, 10 years later, he's the 'mum' of the family. I'm the one asking when scouts is on and fucking up timings and such. That's arisen largely due to the fact that I've ended up in a more stressful and demanding job, so he's picked up the slack. I will say that while I don't measure up to the traditional mum stereotype I am still better than most of the dads I know - plenty of my friend's DHs essentially do nothing with their kids, which is definitely not the bar I'm currently squatting on.

In some ways not being the default parent is great but I often I hate being so clueless and my attempts to get up to speed don't always work - I'm so out of the loop that it's hard to get back in IYSWIM. So I do have a tiny bit of sympathy for dads who go back work after two weeks and then struggle to hit their stride - if things are going quite smoothly without you it can take a lot of effort to insert yourself, especially if your efforts are fairly shoddy and lead to mistakes.

One interesting thing is that DH has commented that he is really grateful I made him change and that he is far, far happier as an involved dad than as a carbon copy of his detached, lazy father. He has said that unknown to him, his upbringing (both within his family and generally as a man) had taught him that child related stuff wasn't for him and so he resisted really getting stuck in - but that resistance was actually stressful and not being involved had a negative effect on him. He is genuinely a wonderful parent - a total natural - and it makes me sad to think that because of how society trained him he could have missed out.

I think there is possibly some confirmation bias going on here.

Some women like to award themselves martyr status and this requires them to view their partner as incompetent when they are not.

Some women set unnecessarily high standards that some men are not dumb enough to adhere to.

Some women make very poor choices when it comes to who they have children with.

Some men are shit.

https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/

Made me think of this.

My dh is alright, but even he has admitted that there are certain things he doesn't want to learn to do, so he can avoid doing them (and some of them are utterly ridiculous like learning how to use the rice cooker - really simple).

My ex DH was like that. He has improved as a dad somewhat, but still feels that cleaning is beneath him and has a (female) cleaner despite living on his own most of the time. And rarely cooks, prefers takeaway/eating out/making the children cook for him because 'They need to learn these skills.' Yes, and you need to learn not to be such a lazy shit.

I felt like this before I had kids - repulsed by the majority of men I knew for the exact same reasons. However I grew up with a very capable father and have older brothers who are very good dads - by that I mean if my SILs suddenly disappeared from the Earth they could cope, both brothers travel abroad alone to visit our parents with their small kids regularly without needing help packing etc., not 'good dads' in that all they do is to take them to the park and swimming. Therefore I knew what I was looking for in a husband if I was going to have a family.

I strongly think growing up with very capable and involved men around me meant I was able to identify another good candidate to have mine with. Lots of women say there was no sign their husband would be like this before kids came along but many of them I've known long term and could see it myself. I think if you grew up with your mum just doing more without complaint it is normalised and you don't notice how much more admin you do than your DH (for example running the household and organising holidays) before kids come along and the lack of teamwork is so much more obvious.

You can communicate all you want but if your up agains a bloke (and they aren’t uncommon) who smile and nod and then do nothing then there’s not much you can do.

If you’re really unlucky they make the effort in the beginning then just down tools when kids come along.

That said I agree with pp who said that if a bloke packs a bag for the zoo differently to how you would then he hadn’t necessarily done it wrong. Some women do try to micro manage things (and then complain about the mental load)

I am wondering how many have spoken to their partners about this unfair division of labour and I mean really sat down and talked to them? What example are we all setting for children by allowing someone not to pull their weight and how angry do you have to be before you snap? I am not lucky to have a DH that does more than his share, but feel very happy that he is a real partner and I do think our approaches to our daily lives stem from mums that really refused to carry a household on their shoulders whilst holding down full time jobs and I think they knew you couldn't have it all, but also knew when to let things go (no one is perfect and I think that there was less pressure at one time to be a superwoman). Just where did these chaps learn their behaviours from in the first place and allowing it to continue is condoning it, isn't it?

Is it the case that he wouldn’t pack a bag for the zoo exactly as you would?

This sort of comment can be so irritating. It is true that sometimes women, especially if they've been doing it all, get frustrated when it's not done their way. But much more often, the reality is that the man's way is not okay. And while I'm more than happy to let him learn from his mistakes, (as I did), there comes a point at which that is too much.

You're right, if he chooses to mix a pink tshirt with a pair of yellow trousers, that's not big deal. But that's not normally what happens and usually, there's more upset and chaos for the chidren. They don't get the snacks they like so they're upset and crying (and if mum is on this outing, she's the one who has to deal with the fallout). Or in my case, DD was late for school at least 50% of the time DH was in charge because his way just didn't work so even though he was annoyed when I stepped in, I had to point out that if I didn't, it didn't get bloody done. I'm still actually quite irritated about that because I NEVER get a morning where I'm not doing at least SOMETHING for the DC in the morning/

Yeah, I feel an element of this too. I would describe it as a form of selfishness. For example, DH will sort himself out - have a coffee, go for a shower, browse on his phone - before he will finally make himself available for kid duties. A couple of good examples from a recent holiday - an hour before we were due to leave for the airport, during peak last minute packing chaos, he decided he would take himself off to the barbers for a haircut. And in the mornings he would diligently shower and apply his own sunscreen before the kids . . . and when I ask him to pack a beach bag, he forgets most of the essentials (refillable water bottles, baby hat, poncho towel etc.)

I address it every single time - I'm not letting him away with being less than an equal partner - but this has done immeasurable damage to our relationship as he now sees me as a nag, whereas I resent him as I feel like I'm the grown-up that organises and is in charge of everything.

It's really, really depressing.

I have to say that in my own family I'm definitely better at managing the childcare, mental load, life admin etc than my DH. For us, this isn't a problem as I'm naturally one of life's organisers, I enjoy it, I chose to work part time so I could focus on all this stuff. I don't resent my husband for being a little clueless sometimes. We both contribute to family life in different ways. I just want to add, my DH isn't useless. He's taken the kids away many times, often looks after them etc and it's all good.
I do know other dads who are absolutely brilliant and not as you're describing men. One of our best friends (male) is a married teacher with two kids. Both he and his wife work full time in similar roles. He does more or less everything! Meal planning, shopping, cooking, cleaning. He also takes the kids out a lot at the weekend or away camping etc while his wife relaxes at home. I know several other men who are similar. I fully acknowledge all the men that are not so capable (or pretend not to be capable).

Habit? Before baby #2, DP used to do all the night waking for DS (to be fair, he doesn't normally wake up), and we alternated bedtimes. It took a couple of months but now he calls for me if he wakes in the night. Also he used to call for DP for all the things you mention (probably because she breastfed up to 14 months), but now it's pretty much 50:50 which one of us he wants (and if thwarted, generally tries asking for the other one: 'no, you can't have another story' 'I want Mama!').

Can't say my DH is the useless turd you describe most men. I'd say it's 50/50 as some of my friends have useless partners but not all

Drag them upwards - love this!

I think that’s what’s happened in my family and now DH definitely does more than his fair share of the physical load with our DCs 8 and 5 - night wakings, bedtimes, lunch boxes, packing for days out, running them around activities.

I definitely still do more of the behind the scenes stuff - homework, reading books, arranging their clubs, arranging play dates. Listening to parenting podcasts/reading books and sharing them with DH (he is yet to read a single book but he at least listens to the podcasts).

But physically he is very much an equal parent and has always done more night wakings than me, actually, as he’s a better sleeper and can get up and back to sleep himself quickly. This shows as in the night, he is the default parent and the DC come to his side of the bed to wake him before me 😁

When our first DC was born, he was totally hands on with the nappies/bottles etc but he did used to ask questions like “shall I put him in his bouncer now” as if I had the answers to everything!

Plus side of being the organiser is I can choose which bits to keep/ delegate I suppose!
@Barleysugar86
I would focus on working this to your advantage to its fullest extent.
This is one of the ways that men manage to keep the upper hand, they instinctively work every situation to their advantage.

We did shared parental leave and are very much equal parents. I think it is too easy for the man to let the woman become the default parent if they have had a year with the baby doing everything.

The only thing is that my kids seem to scream for me and not dh. Especially my older one and I'm hoping it's just a phase.

Time to brush your teeth "I want mummy to do it!" Time to get dropped off at nursery "Mummy do drop off!" Fallen down and grazed knee "AAARGH MUMMY"

Why? Why won't they accept their dad? Especially comforting after a graze? Is it because I smell more comforting because of the memory of breastfeeding or something (wild theory)?! It's not because I'm nicer about it, I'm the cranky impatient one.

I don't know why, but it's doing my head in at the moment. I hate being so constantly in demand.

One of my friends has a theory that we all need a wife. And I’m inclined to agree.

There's this great thing called communication where you can decide who does what jobs - and if you set the expectation before you have kids with them, it's not a surprise when they turn out to be a bone-idle father.

The issue isn't just men - it's women accepting laziness and not pulling men up on it.
I split jobs fairly evenly with my DW, but we both set that expectation very early on and we've stuck to it.
It's not a case of 'that's a woman's job' etc, more of a play-to-your-strengths thing.

As for the OP, she must have the most useless crowd of men around - I can see why that's off putting!
Many men are perfectly capable of taking their kids on holiday unaided, performing a food shop etc. It's not difficult.

My DP can pack a bag, look after baby, put kids to bed fine. But he cannot fathom how he is supposed to complete any other tasks whilst looking after DS6 and a 4 month old. He was in a complete strop at the weekend that I had to work for 5 hours on Sat afternoon, and he had things to do! I had to explain it was perfectly possible to take both children outside with him. Even then the baby got dropped off at his Mum’s because he couldn’t shop with two children.

I agree the bar is lower for men when it comes to parenting. A good example is a man I know whose wife walked out leaving him with the kids (I mean that alone is pretty rare so tells us something). The absolute hero worshiping he gets from women especially, even single mothers, who think he is some kind of god for being a single parent is unbelievable, he’s also offered help ‘to give him a break’ constantly. He’s a good dad, but no better than the single mums I know, and they don’t get the praise and offers of help he gets.

I think extended paternity leave is the answer.

After my first's birth I was very ill both physically and with ppd. My dh took several months off and just basically took over everything.

He's the one who just gets stuff done and I take it for granted. He just trained himself up in those first few months.

Eg every evening... the living room and kitchen are a bombsite - I leave the baby with dh while I do dd's bath and bedtime - I come back down and the baby has had his daily bottle, the kitchen and living room have been tidied and cleaned, washing up done, and dh is sitting calmly on the sofa in a pristine room with the baby asleep and the monitor on. "Would you like a drink?" He multitasks it all...

Whereas if I'm alone with the baby and he does dd's bathtime, I'm breastfeeding on the sofa and that's it. Then the baby snoozes on my lap. Nothing else gets done! I just can't deal with tidying, cleaning, washing up, settling the baby etc all at once. My brain short circuits and I do every job badly.

So it's not innate (just as everyone on here says) it's just the way our society is set up with insanely short paternity leave.

Edit - I mean, just as everyone says, it's not innate! I'm agreeing. Phrased badly

Is it because some men if they are being honest, either didn’t really want children or were ambivalent and just went along with it because their wives wanted a baby, so psychologically they see it as all child related stuff is fine to leave their wife because this is what she wanted? Not saying it’s ok at all but I suspect this is what men might think deep down.

You've summarised perfectly. Yes.

We stepped up, but men didn't. They just found a new way to oppress us. By exhausting us.

But the effect is a rapidly declining birth rate.