Parent taking teenage boy into women's changing room

See someone with a mental age of 2 or 3 I would have no issue with even as an adult. But I suppose the problem is if that’s not immediately apparent it still could make women/girls very uneasy.

A teenager with a younger mental age still deserves the same privacy and dignity as all teenagers. If they can't understand then someone should act in their best interest.

I have worked with adults with learning disabilities and when going swimming we wouldn't get a male and female service user changed in the same room because even if they don't understand it wouldn't be promoting their dignity.

As well as being about protecting female only spaces being just that it’s surely also about dignity for the disabled young person?

they may not understand the situation but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be treated with dignity and be allowed to change in the wrong changing area for them. To me it’s a basic of dignity and respecting the young person to protect their privacy.

by enforcing the female only spaces it is also reinforcing (within the ability of the individual to understand) the importance of respecting the boundaries of women.

You’re quite right @SpidersAreShitheads and it’s great that you’re so thoughtful. The real answer is there needs to be better facilities. I know our local leisure centre is a family changing village with individual locking floor to ceiling cubicles. Which is good. Though in an ideal world there would be that and also a female only changing room.

"See someone with a mental age of 2 or 3 I would have no issue with even as an adult. But I suppose the problem is if that’s not immediately apparent it still could make women/girls very uneasy."

^I think as a parent of a teen with a learning disability, it's REALLY easy to slip into thinking the above. You think to yourself "well, clearly he's not a threat and everyone can see that he has additional needs and needs help" so surely no one will mind?

But this is the type of thing I was talking about on my previous posts. For many women, it might not be a problem. But for a woman from certain religions, it might be a problem. For a woman who has been sexually assaulted it might be a problem. For women who have been subjected to domestic violence, it might be a problem. And so on. Sometimes it's just any male presence that is unacceptable within a space that is supposed to be single sex and safe. Even if there's no actual physical threat.

There are so many different reasons that women rely on single sex spaces. The fact that a male with a severe learning disability doesn't present a physical threat doesn't negate all of the many other valid reasons because some may be psychological/emotional/cultural.

I mentioned in my PP that I have a autistic son who is 14 yrs old, but with a mental age of maybe 6 or 7. I'm also autistic myself. I have to really think carefully about situations to understand the wider issues because it's so easy to assume that it will be OK. It's so easy to think "well, I'd be OK with this" and just forget that other women have different life experiences and may find it unacceptable for a whole host of other valid reasons.

I think "no males in female spaces" is something that just needs to be enforced as a blanket rule. Other than the obvious exceptions of young male children of course!

There are also the physical aspects here to be considered. Young teens going through puberty with pubic hair etc should be allowed to have a same sex environment. You may not want your even younger daughter seeing a young man naked. I know how sensitive girls are with even just other girls.

That’s handy for you.

YANBU - Austism or not, he was too old to be in the female changing room.

I have a 7 year old autistic son. I'm a single mum but their dad is very involved in their lives. I took the kids swimming recently and noted that once boys reach the age of 8 they are no longer allowed to change in the female changing room.

When we arrived home, I spoke with their dad and said that he'll have to come with us next year when my son is 8 and he'll have to help our son get changed in the mens changing room.

Ex doesnt swim, has a phobia but is willing to come along and help our son.

See someone with a mental age of 2 or 3 I would have no issue with even as an adult. But I suppose the problem is if that’s not immediately apparent it still could make women/girls very uneasy.

at the gym I go to it’s mens or women’s. My friends Dd is 12yo (or was when this happened last year) and a boy in her year group at her actual school was frequently in the female changing rooms with his mum. They were challenged about it and the mum said he has autism/special needs and has to be with him. But my friend’s Dd said he’s 100% independent at school. And while I’m aware autism presents differently the girl who is in his class says it’s the first she’s heard about the autism. He might have been 11yo but they were at secondary school. A 12yo girl does not want to get changed in front of her class mates! Especially when he’s sat there on his phone while she’s naked! He could be taking photos (no cubicles). You could say well don’t change if he’s there but sometimes you’re getting changed and these older boys come in. There are frequently boys around that age coming in. Gym has a policy of 8yos and above should be in their sex changing room but it’s not enforced.

Well it’s a tricky one. My son is severely autistic, he’s 25 and couldn’t go into a changing room on his own or a toilet or anywhere on his own. So now if there isn’t a disabled changing room, I don’t/can’t take him swimming so it really does depend on how autism affects him.

""Anyone with even half a brain cell and a modicum of logic can clearly see that is bullshit. Your son is playing you like a banjo."

Gross and fine motor skills are different.

Some children have difficulties with both.

Some children have difficulties with one.

Running on a treadmill uses gross motor skills.

Getting dressed requires fine motor skills - zips, buttons, tying cords/laces etc.

Getting dressed also requires executive functioning skills - understanding what order to put clothes on, which way round. There may be sensory issues involved such as jumpers over the head.

That is why a child may be able to run on a treadmill but not independently dress.

I'm not getting into the rest of the nonsense written by that poster.

"Anyone with even half a brain cell and a modicum of logic can clearly see that is bullshit. Your son is playing you like a banjo."

Anyone with even half a brain cell can see you know nothing.

WTF ?
My son is 14 he's completely non verbal., he goes to a special school for children with severe and profound learning disabilities ,he has very limited understanding of the world around him , he's not playing me like a banjo he has bo fucking concept what a banjo is 🙄, he goes on a treadmill every day at his SPECIAL SCHOOL ,
You have no idea.

Up against attitudes like this it is no wonder that accessibility is shit and disabled people are fed up and demoralised.

And again: men and boys cobmver 8 should not be in the women's.

I agree.

At no point have I said that this is acceptable.

What I have said is that the ablist and othering attitude on this thread and in real life is also unacceptable.

It’s unacceptable to glibly tell female carers to ‘go in the men’s’, as if they are any less female than you.

Its unacceptable to say disabled people should ‘just go somewhere else’- and not accept that your feminist discourse picks and chooses which women count.

It’s unacceptable to use disparaging and insulting language and rhetoric towards disabled people and their carers to make your point.

It’s unacceptable to put the failings in provision of accessibility onto disabled people and their carers by saying things like ‘they should check ahead’ (of course we fucking do).

ask the staff to block the men's for 15 minutes.

Yes- we ask. And they provide us with some space of their choosing. Men’s/ladies/empty office/corridor/toilet… based on where is quiet and accessible. Not all places have accessible single sex changing so ‘the men’s’ might be impossible for me to get to.

so rude, so combative! so unhelpful

He should be in the changing room for men and boys, and if he needs help his Mum should go in there.

Much better a clothed adult woman in the mens than a changing teen in with unclothed women and girls.

Posters here are absolutely just saying that disabled people need to go elsewhere.

Yep, although it isn’t surprising- I’ve lost count of the times I’ve been told on mumsnet that I just shouldn’t go to places.

If he was a big boy, mummy should have gone into the men's with him

Because ‘mummy’ isn’t a woman? So she doesn’t need all the protection and dignity that you need?

@Ereyraa @Sirzy @Februaryfeels
Quotes from just the first two pages of this thread.

If this gym doesn't provide a disabled or family changing room then they need to go elsewhere.
Worst case scenario, they may have to find another pool.
His mum needs to take him somewhere with family changing rooms or similar.
If he was able enough to be in the gym, he is able enough to get dressed in the men's or wait outside surely?
They need to go elsewhere if the changing facilities don’t work for them at this place.

People are having a good rant, but not looking at the drivers. One need does not cancel out the other and everybody benefits if we improve. Women and girls get their changing spaces. Families where the care giver and disabled person are opposite genders get to have a dignified space for the disabled person to have equal access. Posters here are absolutely just saying that disabled people need to go elsewhere.

And again: men and boys cobmver 8 should not be in the women's. And if I were OP I would have insisted they leave and ask the staff to block the men's for 15 minutes.

Women carers matter. But they should not be taking males over 8 into womencm's spaces.

That is it.

As you have commented, rather than simply expressed judgement via vote, could you explain why you think the op is unreasonable?

YABU but you got the depressing responses you wanted and knew you were going to get.

Hi there - I was the PP that made this comment.

I knew it might be a controversial thing to say, but let me just clarify that a bit further.

I totally understand that parents are often the last people to know what their DC get up to, and of course we've all seen parents defending terrible things their kids have done, despite evidence. But I don't think that's the same thing at all really.

In the SEN community, we all rely on each other to make judgements about the safety of our children. Autism and other SEN or learning disabilities present in a myriad of ways. Some children are violent and explosive. Some children tend to "shut down" and go inward. Some children may approach others inappropriately. Some children wouldn't ever in a million years speak to a stranger - and maybe won't even speak to a familiar face either! With no single presentation, we all rely on each other to make the right judgement calls. Some children would be really dangerous in certain settings. Some children can harm others when they're overwhelmed. We rely on each other to make the right choices and to maintain appropriate supervision - because there isn't really any alternative. We have to trust that we all know our children well enough not to put them into situations which would jeopardise other children's safety. There's not a standard approach or one-size-fits-all solution that works in neurotypical settings.

Unlike the rest of society, if you have a SEN teen that requires supervision, they're not getting up to stuff behind your back. You know exactly what they're doing and when. They're not out committing crimes, or assaulting others. Because they're not ever out alone.

So you're right in the sense that normally, a mother wouldn't know whether her adult son could be a sexual predator and regularly assaulting women. But in this very limited set of circumstances, I would trust the mother's judgement - because that's what we do all the time in the SEN community. We have more knowledge of our children and their behaviour because we have to provide supervision around the clock. Plus unlike a regular male entering a female space, the autistic boy isn't going to be left unattended in the female changing rooms either. Unless he was going to make a lunge at one of the females in front of the mother, he doesn't present a safety risk per se.

But the point I was trying to make was that even though he would be accompanied (and I'm happy to trust that she's not deliberately aiding a sexual predator to get his kicks), it doesn't really matter as he still shouldn't be there because the issues are far-ranging and go beyond the simple matter of safety/assaults.

I thought someone might mention safety as the prime concern and I wanted to make the point that even though he might not be someone who's going to assault a female, it's still not OK for all the other reasons that males shouldn't enter female spaces.

I also wanted to make the point that sometimes as a mum who's trying to navigate really awkward situations with a teen SEN boy, sometimes you don't think beyond the obvious. It's really easy to get caught up in the difficulties of your own situation and not consider everything else properly. And that's because there are very few facilities or solutions for older teens with SEN, so you're often having to make decisions on the hoof. It's very easy to get things wrong even when you're trying really hard - especially when you know that your child is still a "little boy" inside. Very easy to forget that the world sees him as the physical man that he is. Very easy to get things wrong.

Sorry for the long and rambly reply, but hopefully that provides a bit more context! Long story short though, we all agree that males of any description shouldn't be in a female-only space because we should always be centring the wide-ranging needs of females in these settings.

Yes please !