To think the level of state involvement many posters expect is bonkers?

I think that people have to walk in the shoes of others before confining tranches of the population to the waste bin. We can and we do have to do more with the underclass. People need hope and dreams plus aspiration.
It’s easy to cook healthy food when you know how to cook, have been taught by parents and are surrounded by peers who eat healthily. As more money has been spent on education fewer girls have had early pregnancies and the average age of mums for first births is increased to late 20’s.

If you want to see what goes wrong look at the prisons and the crazy amounts spent there to keep people imprisoned. Better to spend more on education ans welfare at an earlier age.

Redistribution of wealth, more spending on welfare does work to make the population better educated and more participants. There are a few who can’t be reached because they need far more support not less to realise that there is a better way. Education is key to all this.

I don’t have an ideology as such but I know we can’t continue throwing money at people who are a black hole

Wow. What a way to describe your fellow human beings.

Dehumanisation of particular groups of people never ends well. I know it is a favourite trick of the current incarnation of the Tory Party, but it has no place in a decent society.

Sorry @JenniferBooth . Recollections of any moment in time vary. I seem to remember Brexit negotiations (big time) and the advent of Covid, which was also a very big deal. What or who am I trying to gas light? It was frightening for everyone; nobody understood the reality of the threat we were facing, and there was little understanding of how best to treat the thousands of ill people. If you sent for an oximeter from Amazon, you were well-informed. It's not a period I recall fondly as I was diagnosed with and treated for breast cancer, with surgery and radiotherapy that year, very well and very kindly, and I was selfishly a little self-obsessed.

What the fuck do you think 2020/21 was? Or are you trying to gaslight

Honey, I'm 55. If you're Methuselah, congratulations on your technical prowess. But shucks, thanks for the compliment. Those Bathory Salts are apparently paying off.

But @MistressoftheDarkSide I am also far too polite to say that you are probably too young to recall what really extreme politics really brought: fascism and communism looked alike. Twin cheeks of one arse describes it neatly.

And you maybe even too young to know people once took sides, sometimes violently. Some, given power, persecuted whole populations.

@Againname I was signing on in the 90s just before minimum wage came in and there were jobs paying £50 a WEEK. My rent then was £48 a week for a one bedroom flat. Nothing else available. If i had had a job paying that i would have had £2 left to pay for everything else except rent. No top up because "you dont have kids"

In a less long winded way, what I'm trying to say is that spending money (on good public services, support schemes, work, education, and training opportunities) gives people the help they need. So then they're less state dependant. It also helps prevent the decline of our towns, cities, and villages.

And I'm far too polite to say what I think about the neo-fascist attitudes emboldened by the government's relentless pursuit of the vulnerable and disadvantaged for political point scoring when they are reaping what they've sown by years of austerity and asset stripping and cronyism.

Do you want mayonnaise with that?

This. Years ago my ex used to volunteer with disadvantaged families in a deprived area. He went into it with the attitude that there's loads of feckless people having kids but had his eyes opened. There were no opportunities for people.

The only option that seemed feasible for many was having kids (to get housing, because the few jobs available were low paid and wouldn't be enough to get housing) and claiming benefits (whether out of work or in work but on low pay).

With early intervention schemes and support for older people, the communities he worked with had more hope, ambition, and opportunity.

It might seem 'wrong' to teach people how to parent or spend on other support services but it helps break cycles of 'fecklessness' and disadvantage, and people are healthier so need less NHS care.

It also prevents people who do 'take personal responsibility' but get caught by Shit Happens from falling into worse circumstances and being state dependant for longer periods of time

Sadly I think that the dream of building new, properly planned, built and run mixed estates like this would probably not be viable for any local authority today, either in terms of building or running costs.

I think it would be cheaper than not doing it. Doesn't temporary accommodation cost loads of money? Also loads of people need benefits for private rentals even if they're working. Housing issues also cost the NHS and other services loads.

People here are talking about forced sterilisation. A housing system that penalises child free people can't be ignored for the role it plays in sometimes encouraging people, who might be unable or unwilling to parent well, to have kids. Good public services and support schemes will also help tackle the issue of 'bad' parenting but housing is part of the problem.

Face the facts @MistressoftheDarkSide . There are many people who are not competent to cope with a complex world and too few to pay for all of them to be feather-bedded. I think you should be grateful to be alive now rather than in any previous century.

Just guide me to your truth @MistressoftheDarkSide .

And multiple history books... I don't even need to wait for the public library to open tomorrow.

🍪

I have several... which would you recommend?

And read some history.

I think you’ve put the problem in a nutshell.

Consult a dictionary.

@Giraffesandbottoms do you know many people who are functioning, sane, stable ,healthy etc that are on benefits or raising their kids in unimaginable conditions?

Taking responsibility for yourself it's easy when all of the above are working for you. Even then, shit still happens (unexpected illness, trauma, mental breakdowns etc)

Word salad... what are you saying?

yes, we aren’t going to see eye to eye. Because overall you think that if SS is failing it’s only the fault of the govt. I think the infrastructure isn’t working; but that people are ultimately the problem, and not taking responsibility for themselves. Which is the entire point of the thread.

and I don’t find “shame on you” even remotely insulting or moving. It’s just a meaningless trope to try to avoid any sort of discussion about something uncomfortable.

I think it’s more shameful to support and encourage people who shouldn’t be having children to have them, so that millions can live in suffering they don’t deserve and then repeat the same cycles ad infinitum.

Also, things are in place to address that. SS etc. If that isn't working then look at why.... oh I don't know why I'm bothering. It's like bloody Groundhog Day.

Then shame on you. And your kind.

Well people were very happy to "squander" money on the homeless to house them during the first lockdown. Ditto telling the unemployed they didnt have to attend the Job Centre. Strange how you get the complete opposite scenario when people are scared of catching a deadly disease off of them. And they wernt the ones going on those ski trips.