To think the level of state involvement many posters expect is bonkers?

Some poster up thread complained that in the 1970s, one third of people lived in social housing. So many posters on here demand a council house and associated conditions for life. There was a thread yesterday from a poster who didn't want to be housed in private housing by her council but be given a proper council house.
Invited immigrant workers into this country to fill key roles is growing. How long can the UK sustain 672,000 net migration each year (2023), mostly new invited workers ( and rising ) each year? The housing crisis will get worse and worse. Don't get me wrong invited migrant workers deserve to be decently housed.
There is more pressure on housing than there has ever been.
A quick Google tells me that 231,100 new homes were built in 2023 in the UK. Notice the 400,000 shortfall in new homes compared to net migration numbers.
The entitlement is that so many expect to be given housing, free medical care, free education, subsidised childcare, free social care.
No Government, whether it is Tory or Labour can pay for it all.

But equally feckless, irresponsible people shouldn’t be indirectly encouraged to have lots of children and thereby benefit from the provision/ support offered to children.

I remember having loads of public health intervention in schools during the 70's. Why its not a good idea to eat bogies is now lodged in my head forever thanks to Mrs Scott

Just to point out that much if state involvement and infrastructure and regulation was brought in after WW2 to appease returning soldiers, ensure the next time we had an army it was fit to fight and to prevent revolution.

Various ideologies have expanded and contracted what's on offer over the years, and we're currently at end stage capitalism which allows rampant asset stripping which in turn plunders state coffers - by design.

I've used this analogy before, but if you give a child an ice cream, then punish them for enjoying it, that's abusive.

Better management is key and understanding why people fall down at "personal responsibility" and targeting resources accordingly would seem like common sense.

Instead we return to the feckless and undeserving narrative. It really ain't as simple as you think, given the speedy evolution of modern society.

Yes to all this.

I also remember visits from the police to teach us what it’s like doing fingerprints on criminals and they put invisible codes on our bikes for us in case they got stolen and a visit to the local fire station to learn about fire safety and have a go of the hose.

I get the feeling that the people moaning about warm school milk would be quick to criticise anyone complaining about anything currently provided by the state as an 'extra'.

It shows a total lack of awareness to not even acknowledge that some children really needed that milk as nutrition. They may well not have enjoyed it either, but it was provided as important for their health and growth.

Also the little bottles and crates were very cute

Not for the teachers to brush, but supervising fair enough after lunch perhaps?

I loved free school milk and used to queue up a few times 😅

I agree that the level of state involvement some people expect is ridiculous. However I don’t think schools are being asked to do too much.

Are they being asked to do too much with the funding they’ve got? Yes absolutely. Are they being asked to do too much for a minority of children/by a minority of parents? Yes. But I think it’s a good idea to provide access to play therapists, educational psychologists, pastoral/wellbeing staff, school nurses, etc etc and I wish schools would were better funded for a more holistic provision like that. I also think schools should be teaching “peripheral” subjects which are actually important life skills like personal finance (maybe some of them could then teach their parents).

I’m more bothered by the people who get stuck in the mindset of being “entitled” to a particular number of bedrooms, or a particular amount of benefits payments as long as they don’t work too many hours etc. I’m all for the safety net but that’s what it should be, something to catch you and get you back up again, not catch you in the net and keep you dependent on the state for the rest of your life.

The problem with free school milk was that we were made to drink it. Freezing in winter, warm in summer. It was vile.

If we let the "No NHS for you because you have X lifestyle" genie out the bottle and end up leaving some people without care, where the hell do we end up?

with an amazing health service that only treats babies because everyone else is too dirty

I hated it too ! And in the winter they put the crate on the heater to warm it, yuk, I really like lovely cold milk ! I used to cover the bottle with my hands and tip it down the sink

I am sure lots of people don't actually understand false economy, and that taxes paid should be spent wisely for the sake of society.

I think the level of state involvement in raising quite high taxes but misspending them and having a false economy approach is bonkers

How many of the PP including OP are the same people on other threads who bemoan the state of society, worry and feel sad (rightly) about the decline of many towns, cities, and villages, rising homelessness, drug problems, crime issues, 'feral', children, failing schools, 'sink estates', difficulty accessing their GPs, NHS waiting lists, potholes, expensive or poor provision of public transport, ineffective CMS enforcement, and other social problems?

Unless money is invested in good public services, housing, social care, the NHS, supportive benefits system, and education and training opportunities, society will continue to decline, and even if you have a lack of empathy, it still affects everybody including you.

Money can only insulate you from the problems to an extent. Unless you live a completely cut off hermit life and never ever stray beyond your tiny hamlet or village. Isolated from life (and never needing hospital, or other facilities).

With social problems including disadvantaged or 'problematic' families, there's a need to break the cycle. Poorly funding support services, and failing to provide educational and training opportunities, is false economy.

With rising homelessness and a rising benefits bill, not funding social homes and the NHS is false economy.

The issue really is, apart from actual money, the funding needs to be better spent.

Tackle mismanagement and ensure accountability especially if the public service is a contracted out private company.

Provide better trained staff and crack down on any bullying culture in the company/service. This affects staff performance, causes high staff turnover, and consequently a crap and failing service. Which wastes public money.

(I do agree that misspent money is bonkers. For example, funding mental health counselling schemes for social problems instead of tackling the cause. Which is a need for social homes, better wages and supportive benefits system, encouraging employers to provide training instead of overlooking unemployed job seekers for lack of experience, and cutting NHS wait lists. All these things affect mental health but people need practical solutions rather than counselling in many cases).

I think this will have to change again though, I think. I just don't see how how we'll manage a society with an ever increasing age profile without maneuvering some care back into the home. I know some people seem to think robots and euthanasia will come to the party but it would be highly unremarkable if it's actually women picking up the bulk of the social fallout.

Hmm
I was at primary school in the 60s, secondary in the 70s. I think then there was more personal responsibility, however, at primary our lunch was served on China plates with knives and forks and we had beakers and water available at the table. We learnt not to spill the water and put our knives and forks together nicely, most of us could anyway.

At secondary we had allocated lunch tables and each year the 6th formers left and the first formers joined. Tables had 8 people on them from different years. We had to forge relationships and get along. The two eldest queued with trays to take back to the table enough food for 8, which they served like "mother".

At primary we were taught how to write a letter and address an envelope. At secondary our head took us for one period a week in what was nominally RE. She told us also about paying bills, abusive men, careful choices, getting pregnant, etc.

Those were valuable experiences, school delivered them as part of normal life. With polystyrene boxes and plastic cutlery much has been lost. I do think those who run schools are largely culpable but in my view we have turned into a nation that values multiple, often worthless qualifications at the expense of a broad education.

All my teachers seemed able to write well and appeared very well educated. My children are now in their late 20s and their teachers did not and I would have had little faith in them teaching table manners.

OTH we ate sweets in the playground, had little or no homework at primary and drinking water was in short supply.

Personally I believe something has gone wrong somewhere but that more state won't help because the standards of a modern state just won't cut it.

Twenty to twenty five years ago, however, I don't recall any 3 to 4 year olds starting school in nappies and I just don't understand what has gone on there. Nurseries for 2.5 and up were draconian in their expectations, rightly or wrongly.

Completely agree. Things get pushed onto schools because there is no support anywhere else.

I remember reading in an old novel, set in the 40s or early 50s, about children from poor families being sent to school despite being unwell, ‘because at least they’d get their milk’.

If we let the "No NHS for you because you have X lifestyle" genie out the bottle and end up leaving some people without care, where the hell do we end up?

People's HIV turning to AIDs because IV drugs/risky sex is bad?

People who develop lung cancer decades after quitting cigarettes being turned away?

Someone with a new heart arrhythmia being turned away after they tell their doctor they've been knocking back energy drinks to cope with working two jobs?

Didn't use factor 50 from March to October, so have fun with that melanoma?

You'd have to have a strong stomach to be the person making the algorithm used to deny people with life threatening illnesses treatment and to be the person who has to say no to the individuals asking for help.

I got milk at school.it was absolutely vile and has given my a life long hatred of milk ,for some reason it was kept in a warm classroom until after lunch no fridge etc
I don't know wether it was free because I'm 50
Nasty ,horrible stuff.

That's absolutely key. Remember Sure Start, @FaeryRing? Very successful, defunded by next government.

Ot course parents should provide for their DC. But if they can't? Then yes the state should step in. I don't think DC should be left to suffer.

When I had a mental breakdown, I had help feeding my kids (but not from the state, from a church food bank - I got no benefits for about 7 months.)School came and picked my DD up a couple of times. I was and am eternally grateful for the help I received.

Because it's about one step away from life undeserving of life.

I'd rather sort out the inherent inefficiencies and poor management before I stopped treating people because I thought they were stupid

The state is should do more, but in order to do so taxes need to be raised accordingly. Too many paid for by government/Council resources have been cut often affecting the people who need them most.

It's simple. Raise taxes across the board and allocate the money according to the services in need. So in about 292 years once tory austerity has been repaired, provision can be made to expand and enhance services.

In all seriousness, a step towards enhancing state run services would be to ensure that staffing levels are increased and maintained, wages for public sector workers increased, and an incentive for joining these careers. Make being teachers, police officers, fire fighters, waste disposal technicians, nurses, doctors etc attractive professions to be apart of again.

This is partially why the tories are pushing more people back to work. They need money through taxation, and the more people who are working and working to earn just above the taxable amount will mean more money to prop up the system. Their approach is not nearly good enough and misguided in terms of their execution of this goal.

As a country we are broke ass poor. Britain has ranked 37th out of 39 European countries in regards to child poverty. This is unacceptable.

For those who are complaining and holding their hands out for more, put your money where your mouth is and pay taxes appropriately and proportionally. Either through funds or giving back in some form to the community in which you're taking resources out of it. I do appreciate and understand that some may be dealing with long term illness and disability, I am talking about those who refuse to vote, spoil votes, work just enough to avoid paying taxes, those who use tax loopholes to pay less tax, corporations etc.