To think the level of state involvement many posters expect is bonkers?

Parents need to take responsibility for a lot of this. 🙄

The article you have linked to is not only written by shona sibary,who is notorious for writing controversial articles
But she also seems to have missed the point as she talks about night time nappies which loads of kids use some up till teens and has nothing to do with not being toilet trained during the day and there for has no affect on nursery or school.

‘I've used this analogy before, but if you give a child an ice cream, then punish them for enjoying it, that's abusive’

It don’t work though does it, the analogy. A more accurate one would be a group of people in a sweet shop. Some eat no sweets, some eat a bit then go and do something else, maybe put some sweets in their pocket. Some sit in the sweet shop and eat all the free sweets. No body gets punished.

Exactly! And why did she have so many if she’s too busy for basic child rearing?!

Six year olds would be rare but there are definitely middle class parents who can't be arsed toilet training and will happily send their kids to reception in nappies or pushed in buggies. On one occasion one of them had a dummy!

Some mums just expect other people to raise their kids.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-12698825/My-daughter-night-nappies-started-going-school-WONT-apologise-no-one-criticise-working-mums-busy-potty-train.html

The alternative, which I think would be good, is to actually monitor people’s parenting more, and penalise them financially if they aren’t parenting properly.

unfortunately, some people need incentivising to do a decent job.

But since so many people aren’t contributing, it’s basically just taxing the people who are already contributing even more.

Can you read? I clearly phrased my answer with things like “doesn’t always mean” eg it does sometimes mean. It’s not always used as a get out free card - but sometimes it is. Because, as you say, there is a pretty broad spectrum.

Yes thanks I'm well aware of that I have severely autistic 14 year old
But I think.you will find that special needs can be an answers as to why some childrena are late to toilet train
I assume you realise that special needs ,is a very broad term and just because your friend managed to toilet train her child it will.take a lot longer for other children ???
And some never will.

Yeah it doesn't work like that. I will continue to vote for parties who would increase taxes to spend on valuable public services.

Well, the alternative is to stop all intervention/benefits etc and then what?

So a few may get their act together - great. Then, some may turn to charity and the kindness of strangers. Some may starve. Some may turn to crime. The life chances of those kids will be further damaged having already having the misfortine of being born to feckless parents. Only one of those outcomes is a desired one for society.

That's the rub. Do we say that overall having a welfare state/state intervention benefits society more than not, bearing in mind what would happen if the safety net was dismantled altogether (and it's got some pretty massive holes in as it is). Or do we argue that it's not worth the taxes and the perceived piss-taking and those children will be collateral damage in our attempt to force people to take responsibility?

I know which country I would prefer to live in.

x2boys · Today 16:27

Regardless of what the parents say ,surely the six year old themselves want to out-of nappies at that age ???

Personally, I'd have thought so, but it would seem that a few don't care.

Unfortunately a subset of the population seems to want to outsource parenting - of course the rich always have hiring nannies and using boarding schools, but there's less affluent who don't want to take responsibility for their children.

It starts with weaning, I know a health visitor who is sent by social services to houses to teach them to actually feed their infants, then there's potty training and using a pen, and cutlery, arriving at school unable to do these things. Teachers are having to do these parenting tasks, explain to parents they need to read with their kids ... then there's parents who only bother to take their kids to school when they can be bothered, blaming mental health or whatever when it's not that it's laziness so often, I had a job for a few weeks picking up dc from 3 houses and taking to school (parents were fine picking up as didn't involve getting up in the morning!) none of these households were disabled, their were just chaotic.

Ok rant over

Am fairly sure you could contact hrmc on Monday and ask them to take more tax?

Regardless of what the parents say ,surely the six year old themselves want to out-of nappies at that age ???

People are living longer with much more complex health needs ,people may have gone in a home, in days gone by because, they were widowed ,lonely etc but still.fairly independent with their self care needs
Often those that that are in homes these days Need nursing care ,full assistance with feeding ,dressing etc
I can understand why they are vert expensive.

@x2boys My relative was in a mixed home. She just needed a bit of support and companionship but some of the residents needed full nursing care. The difference was in those days staff could afford to do the job because there was more affordable housing available even if their job wasn't super highly paid, and most care homes including hers weren't privatised. Often large private companies make millions from owning a group of care homes but run then on a shoestring. Understaffed and the staff they do have are poorly trained and badly paid.

I'm beginning to also think people can't win. They're told to eat healthily, not smoke, and have a healthy lifestyle but then everyone is dismayed when they don't die younger and there's an ageing population. I also understood that life expectancy is no longer rising?

Also many of the complex health needs build up longterm. Lots of working age people struggling to see their GP and often when they finally manage it, fobbed off, and or stuck on long secondary care waiting lists. So their health has deteriorated by the time they're diagnosed. Or people living in poverty which affects health. Consequences later down the line is more older people with higher care needs.

So much goes back to the false economy approach.

Also special needs doesn’t always mean you can’t potty train - it just means it’s a lot harder and takes more effort. It’s shit and it’s difficult but that’s parenting. My best friend’s son has moderate special needs and you had better believe she send him to preschool toilet trained. It look a lot of dedication and I respect her so much but you don’t get to just opt out and make it someone else’s problem.

SN is also not the get out of jail free card that people sometimes think it is.

Three isn't really an issue though that vast, vast majority of kids will be toilet trained at some point between their second and fourth year ,and some kids do take a little longer ,my oldest was reliably toilet trained at 3 years two months ,we had tried for a good year before than but it didn't quite click with him.untill just after his third birthday,
And there's a big difference between being in nappies at just turned three and six ,if its six i can almost guarantee there is something else going on.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/05/children-school-early-years-education-pandemic-covid

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13234337/Parents-ban-children-nappies-starting-school.html

https://www.nurseryworld.co.uk/news/article/huge-numbers-of-children-starting-school-developmentally-delayed-study

According to a You Gov survey based on a sample of around 900 teachers and staff many children starting school last September were not toilet trained, struggled to socialise with other children, express themselves, or understand basic instructions.

x2boys · Today 16:19

First of all I can't imagine there are many six year old who don't t have some type of medical issue or developmemtal delay willingly going to school.in nappies

I can assure you that it's true and confirm no special needs. She's been told by parents that its her job to toilet train their kids.

And is that cry of 'neglect!!' Targetted at the parents in this case where there's no additional needs, or just at the school?

Absolutely agree with all
of this

There's no such thing as public money.

Also: there's no such thing as EU money.

I'm willing to pay more in taxes to fund these services. I would rather have a state similar to Scandinavian countries where citizens pay higher taxes have better services.
The hope would be that with better schools, funded before and after school and holiday clubs that aspirations would be raised for the next generation coming up and the burden on the state would be reduced. I believe it would be a wise investment.
I think when Iceland invested in state funded sports activities for children they saw a massive drop in underage drinking and antisocial behaviour .