To think the level of state involvement many posters expect is bonkers?

Well there do seem to be high expectations on spending.

What are you looking to for extra funding?

Yeah magic money tree is one of those phrases designed to appeal to the thick.

To some degree...

People should absolutely taking responsibility for:

• raising their kids properly so they don't become anti-social, entitled and idle adults
• looking after their health as much as they can (ie avoiding smoking, drinking, drug abuse, eating to excess)
• work, unless health issues and/or disabilities come in the way.

But

As a taxpayer I also expect tax revenue to be spent on giving us a decent health service, social care, transport system, school system and pensions.

If not why I am contributing so much every month is income tax, council tax and national insurance?

Life is full of ups and downs and it is not a choice to have a disability or long term physical or mental health condition or to be made redundant. It can happen to any of us.

Also if you are lucky enough to be born in a supporting family with no money issues you also need to understand that not everyone has the same start in life.

People who are struggling need a safety net.

The issue right now is that we are paying high levels of tax but get shit public services in return at the moment.

There are going to be a lot of people who are going to be very disappointed when the next government’s magic money tree fails to bear fruit.

Of course instead of using money effectively to prevent problems, we can pander to the lower common denominator. How about Take back responsibility. And use the slogan to cut any service that is preventative. After all who acres about the future criminals, prisoners and people on mental health wards. They will eb someone else's problem.

All the research shows that you spend on early years and prevent problems later.
Our prisons are overflowing because we ignore that lesson. And prisons cost a fortune to run.

That's a load of half baked tosh.

By that "logic" all women who have had babies should be shot because they have taken more out than men.

All people with spina bifida, cystic fibrosis, MS, schizophrenia, sickle cell anemia, asthma and a host of other conditions should be penalized.

And it’s not the richest who are paying more it’s the famous ‘squeezed middle’.

Nail on the head!

I think it's important to discuss the problems and it shouldn't be seen as 'Bad Tory' to do that. Equally important is to not dismiss effective solutions and recognise the issue of false economy. Also everyone is contributing (in tax). Even if not NI or income tax, there's VAT and other taxes. Even just spending in shops contributes as it's keeping businesses alive so keeping people in employment.

Investing in dealing with social problems initially costs money but saves money in the end. It also improves quality of life for all of us, and our towns, cities, and villages.

I agree with a PP about the Scandinavian system. Relatively high taxes but a better society and quality of life for everyone. A very important part of this is, if taxes are high, they need to be well spent. Sometimes the current setup with how taxes are spent seems like putting a plaster on a broken leg. Money is spent on the symptoms and consequences instead of the causes and prevention.

Yes you are right OP. What is it with parents expecting their SEN children to get support that meets their needs?
Maybe we should chuck them all in a work house instead?

I agree the sense of entitlement has increased a lot and taking personal responsibility decreased. The number of times I've heard 'it's my right to...'(usually followed by some ridiculous demand) when actually no, there are other options like being patient, polite and considerate of others. Xx

Increase your taxes or do you mean increasing tax on someone else??

If you read the article linked it's by shona sibary ,who alway,s writes controversial articles
She also appears to be missing the point as she talks about night time nappies which has bo bearing whatsoever on being toilet trained during the day.

In my analogy the NHS is an ice cream. It's not exactly free as it's partly funded by municipal input. It offers general health care, and due to progress and better understanding of more and more conditions and the impact of good general health on the population more services are offered. Later down the line, for political and ideological reasons, the people who use those services find them cut and withdrawn. Suddenly it's the fault of the service users who have been told to use it on the first place fir actually using it ( or trying to these).

Free state education. Implemented to free up parents to work in industry after the industrial revolution, and to plug the gaps in childcare where children used to work in family businesses dependent on agriculture that diminished as factories went up. Of course there was a dawning realisation that putting children to work in dangerous environments was becoming unpalatable, but the main thrust was to restructure society around the new waves of industrialisation and burgeoning global capitalism.

Education was a means to an end and still us for the lower socio-economic spectrum. Turn out a literate, obedient work force primarily, some of whom could capitalise on that for their own betterment but for many, it just let them keep relative pace with progress. The main beneficiaries were employers and the government.

Now of course we have technology. The onus is still on the individual to do well and join the rat race, but expectations change faster and faster, and again, it is used to spread and test ideologies too.

You've only got to look at threads on here that denigrate Education in terms of anything creative or that inspires people, over functional subjects to ensure a better standard of living. When even those choices don't improve an individual's chances or prospects it's always their attitude at fault, never systemic and economic issues.

I could go on but I'm weary and boring myself now. I know what I'm trying to get at - after 55 years if trying to do all the right things, I'm not the only one looking at a complete shitshow of the modern world, and wondering if the madness will ever stop, and seeing that it is just breeding more and more convoluted madness in every direction.

I agree there’s far too many people reliant on the state for everything and think that the state should pay for everything. Someone on another thread was saying it’s too much to expect that people on benefits should work 30 hours because who would look after their children.

That’s ridiculous. My almost 4 year old would be embarrassed to start school in September in nappies. Don’t have kids if you can be bothered to spend time potty training them.

I generally agree, but for whatever reason (lack of life skills, bad social circumstances, inability to cope, disadvantaged backgrounds, mental health crisis, or whatever other reason) some aren't.

Whether it's lack of will or ability, it's happening. So what do we do? Nothing? It's not fair on the child, and even if people don't care about that it affects all of society. All of us. Financially and or just the general impact on communities.

'Feral' kids grow up to be adults struggling with social problems and then repeat their childhoods with their own kids. Then we have more social problems affecting our towns, cities, and villages, and everything just gets worse and worse.

Investment in early intervention and support services, improved CMS system, and better opportunities (jobs, education, training, housing, access to healthcare) will help break the cycle.

Also, and this is probably a bit controversial and I don't think I'll explain what I mean well, but I don't think the current housing system helps. DC mean automatic priority and eligibility for housing. When there's lack of opportunity and a disadvantaged backgroud, having DC can be seen as the best ambition or option.

I'm not suggesting families shouldn't be housed. Children need homes, and whatever anyone thinks about how responsible or not their parents are, the kids shouldn't suffer because of it. Also it's not simply 'irresponsibility'. Circumstances can change, unplanned life events happen.

However what's really needed is more social housing for everyone including single people and childfree couples and better work and training opportunities and good public services.

Beg to differ, I missed roughly three years of high school. Deliberately. With friends. No one gave a shit. I think in three years a social worker came round once to ask me why I was missing so much school.
Thst was late 70s early 80s.

Could not have put this better myself.

Clearly the reports of the imminent demise of the Tory party have been greatly exaggerated. They just need to sell tickets for their next conference to the majority of the participants of this thread and it'll be packed to the rafters.

Well said. Whatever we may think about feckless parents, it isn’t right that children suffer.

There needs to be some sort of safety net to protect children in need.

Where are you getting the idea that they’re getting wads of cash from?

And where are you getting the idea that it’s getting spent on nails, dogs, takeaways and lip filler?

I know some schools provide vouchers for families on a very low income but these are vouchers for supermarkets and can’t be spent on anything but food.

There is sometimes a household support fund but this is about £80 and wouldn’t go very fair on lip fillers and dogs etc.

I don’t think you realise the impact poverty has on children’s education.

You are obviously very privileged and you should be grateful but why would you want to stop help being given to the children who need it the most.