To think the level of state involvement many posters expect is bonkers?

Is there good evidence that there are a greater proportion of children who aren't meeting typical milestones in this generation? I know there's the odd news story here and there that will focus on views, opinions, a particular school or teacher but is there any reasonable markers of school preparedness that is tracked over time?

Yeah I do think people increasingly expect government to fix everything for them. I think if a couple is on UC we should expect at least enough hours of work of a full time job between them, say 40 hours.

I feel a bit conflicted about kids though, I do think it’s worth making sure they understand what normal is. That it’s normal to brush your teeth twice a day, to have clean clothes, to be fed well etc etc. I think those of us from dysfunctional families who turned out okayish often had to work it out slowly by ourselves.

Unfortunately some parents can’t or won’t provide that and none of us can help who our parents are. However teachers can’t be teacher, parent and social worker. I think it would perhaps be better to have a health visitor type of person who basically goes in and checks this stuff is being done, if it isn’t you go to food vouchers because frankly you aren’t responsible enough to decide for yourself. Sometimes some parents show themselves to be either too inept or disinterested to really look after their own children’s interests.

Bottom line is that we can’t actually afford to keep expanding state intervention. Our dependent population is growing and the middle is already taxed heavily and suffering the same COL issues are everyone else. People are going to at some point have to take more responsibility for themselves.

I was at school pick up, first school at that and someone said the school day should run until 4 at least, 3 is no good for working parents. Is definitely seen as free childcare for some 🙈

And was so rude! Sneered at me when o said I have collected £45 of points only buying things I would buy anyway. Sneered!

Read the thread. That comment was about people who indulge in behaviour with health risks and no possible upside - becoming obese, for example - and then expect the health service to fund their treatment. Obviously doesn't apply to women giving birth - that's a social contribution - or people with conditions like cystic fibrosis.

You missed the bit where you explained where all the money comes from! “Higher taxes” doesn’t cover it - are you saying those who work (very) hard to support their own families should also pay for others’?

I agree op.
People should take personal responsibility.
I think tough love is needed.

So many people, expect someone else, whether that’s the local authority, the government, the police, the NHS, schools or whoever, to pay for things or do things which they absolutely should be doing themselves.
No wonder the squeezed middle is annoyed. The rich get off scot free and so do those who don’t and won’t work.
Everything had to be paid for.
I seriously think things should be scaled down.
Too many people on the take from those who are slogging their backsides off working to pay for it.

I think people have very different levels of needs, so it's never going to be one size fits all.

It's the sense of entitlement that gets me. People think they're entitled to xyz for literally no reason.

Pensioners are the weirdest to me, so many refuse to accept a pension is a benefit (it's the biggest part of the welfare budget), they don't believe they should have been planning themselves for their own personal retirement for the best part of a half century and the government should pay for literally everything they need (and enough for several holidays a year on top). And when pensions are increased and they are given far more money than they actually ever put into the system (even accounting for inflation) then complain they're getting taxed on it! Can't win.

If you read the article linked it's by shona sibary ,who alway,s writes controversial articles

As I read it, I thought the tone seemed familiar... then I realised it was just like the "Polly Filler" spoof column that ran in Private Eye about 15 years back. She was always complaining about the au pair (a different one every month) and her husband, "The useless Simon". I imagine that Shona was a big part of the inspiration for this character.

We need tax all income at same rate as salaries.

Oof maybe

I’m no fan so I’ll give you that

If everyone was taxed at around the same rate as higher rate tax payers in uk (currently 45%) we would have a similar system. I don’t think people will vote for that though. You also can’t compare the UK to Scandinavian countries. We have nothing in common in terms of population size and exploitation of natural resources. I don’t think intense fracking would be any more popular than the high tax rates for everyone.

When are labour coming? Sadly all I see on the horizon are Starmer, Elphicke and Poulter's rebranded Tories.

Every person in every country relies on the state in some way.
Or are you going to start hiring your own private police, fire brigade, defence force, etc?

What’s the state dependency rate like in other countries? I know ours is high but not sure if others are similar

I think if you were being smarter you’d look at which sectors contribute in specific countries, how much people rely on care homes and what type of healthcare model is being used. Any co payment or small charge for medical treatment?

What’s the obesity rate like and general health, we’re not great on obesity compared to Japan or some other EU countries

Loads of things to look at in terms of ageing population impact

But if you are correct I assume all ageing population woes will disappear on the arrival of Labour.

Annual PFI repayments are about 2bn, or 0.2% of tax revenue. I partly accept the point on the pandemic - I did read the total cost of covid to the UK government was £310 billion to £410 billion. No small amount, but we're not repaying it one it year.

Other countries have aging populations, in fact don't we pay one of the lowest state pensions Europe? Certainly one of the lowesr relative to comparatively wealthy countries. What makes our aging population uniquely expensive?

Maybe if I was smarter, I'd be making a connection between trying to wonder where our money is going, and the booming prosperity enjoyed by the companies related to tory donors.

You mean like private schools do?

@Giraffesandbottoms We have people in their fifties and sixties unable to work because of long NHS waiting lists. I know some of these people. A friend who needs a knee operation and in too much pain to leave the house, waiting for a knee replacement.
You cut NHS support, you end up with more people long term sick and unable to work.
We need investment. Our government act like an owner of a house who paints over rotten beams rather than investing and sorting out the underlying rot.

I think many parents (not particularly aiming this at MNers) would be more than happy for their kids to be in school from 8-6 daily and being parented, educated and everything else.

@Againname I totally agree. There used to be well funded falls prevention teams who worked with elderly people referred by GPs. The aim was to stop them falling and spending often weeks in hospital. They would do everything from tack down loose carpet, give physio exercises to improve balance, or even give slippers if the person was wearing slippers associated with greater falls risk.
These things are not headline grabbling, but they stop people becoming badly injured and save money.

But at least one of the reasons so many aren't contributing is because they are working low paid but very essential jobs. If governments supported an actual living wage then people in work wouldn't be dependant on top ups via UC etc. If everyone working these low paid jobs suddenly got high paid jobs and paid 40% tax we would be f**d as a country.
Essential jobs need to be higher paid and more valued, in order to actually support our schools, nhs, councils etc in providing their services.

Excellent post, @Againname

"A stitch in time saves nine".

True, and the same applies to later years and adults too. Early and effective support instead of the current mess where people are left to flounder until crisis point and then have more costly needs. Like the planned millions to 'get people who're off sick with depression and anxiety back to work' (despite the fact that there's less job vacancies than people not working...)

Many people are depressed or anxious because they can't find work or housing or have other social circumstances that need practical support, or they have physical health issues and are stuck on long NHS wait lists. Many in these situations don't need counselling or a punitive benefits system. They need work and training opportunities, decent housing, social care, and quicker NHS treatment. The currently planned 'solution' is more false economy.

I agree with @mathanxiety and @Startingagainandagain