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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think the level of state involvement many posters expect is bonkers?

987 replies

FaeryRing · 11/05/2024 11:47

It seems like there is nothing the state shouldn’t be responsible for any more! Feeding your kids, getting them to school, hiring ‘behaviour specialists’ for every classroom because parents don’t want to discipline their own children, giving you money towards virtually anything you ask for because it’s not fair you have to pay for anything yourself.. I find it absolutely wild and don’t think it’s at all realistic or representative of what most adults believe?

OP posts:
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12
FaeryRing · 11/05/2024 19:31

mrsdineen2 · 11/05/2024 19:27

You complained about the thousands spent on maternity - sure, it's a nice abstract point, but the alternative you're advocating is dead mothers and babies.

You complained about the thousands spent on the child's medical care - sure, it's a nice abstract point, but the alternative you're advocating is dead children.

You complained about the thousands spent on the child's education - sure, it's a nice abstract point, but the alternative you're advocating is the creation of an economic underclass trapped in uneducated misery and despair, while wider society also suffers decades of lost productivity due to the short sightedness of the marginal cost of a school place for a little over one decade.

Edited

No I complained about the mother’s lack of contribution to it!

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 11/05/2024 19:30

Sunny678 · 11/05/2024 19:12

I'm a teacher and one child in my class gets picked up and dropped off by the headmaster every morning and afternoon because his dad doesn't drive. We also feed some children in the mornings as the parents either forget toor they 'don't have time'
I've been asked to do speech therapy and anger management sessions for children in my class. It's crazy

I live in an American suburb where busses are paid for by local taxes to pick up all the SEN students from their homes and bring them to and from school. The busses also pick up children who have to cross one of the very busy local streets to get to school, if their parents can't take them.

The local schools provide excellent SN staff and programmes. SEN are diagnosed without waiting even weeks, let alone years, by in-house staff, and IEPs developed. Services like speech therapy, occupational therapy, and emotional needs therapy are either provided on site or contracted to local providers (with transport provided if off site). All children living in the school district can avail of the diagnostic and therapeutic services, even if they go to private schools within the district, and transport is also provided to them.

The schools provide breakfast either free, half price, or fully paid by parents, and the same goes for lunch. The free and reduced price school meal service is provided by the state.

British schools could have the same level of services if the political will existed to make that possible.

mrsdineen2 · 11/05/2024 19:27

FaeryRing · 11/05/2024 19:09

We won’t be grateful if the child becomes enmeshed in a cycle of benefits and doesn’t work themselves, which is much more likely if the parent is.

I won’t even reply to that second bit as it’s a total distortion of what I said and you know it’s absolutely false.

You complained about the thousands spent on maternity - sure, it's a nice abstract point, but the alternative you're advocating is dead mothers and babies.

You complained about the thousands spent on the child's medical care - sure, it's a nice abstract point, but the alternative you're advocating is dead children.

You complained about the thousands spent on the child's education - sure, it's a nice abstract point, but the alternative you're advocating is the creation of an economic underclass trapped in uneducated misery and despair, while wider society also suffers decades of lost productivity due to the short sightedness of the marginal cost of a school place for a little over one decade.

BIossomtoes · 11/05/2024 19:24

FaeryRing · 11/05/2024 19:16

@Desecratedcoconut I honestly don’t know what’s causing it but there has been a massive rise in special needs and a gradual decline in the development of younger children. The number of children in our small town alone who are non verbal at 5 is staggering. I don’t think it’s a case of teaching them to do up a coat and hold a pencil, it’s more that they actually aren’t capable.

I think you might find it could be something to do with what was happening four years ago. Let me see if I can remember why we were all locked up in isolation for weeks on end. 🤔

RedFence · 11/05/2024 19:23

HeavensToBetsie · 11/05/2024 13:33

God it would be awesome if we could get back up to 50% council housing again.

Just think how much better it would be if people had secure affordable homes. Much less strain on schools, social services, police, all sorts.

How would this impact home owners? Around 50% of the UK population owns their home, 26m people. How would more social housing impact their home value?

I'm a first time home owner, I'm a single parent to 2 boys, one is disabled. Blood, sweat and tears to buy a house which I can barely afford the fix (leaking roof, plumbing) in an area we didn't want to live in, but the alternative was temporary accommodation, we were homeless following leaving my 9 year private rental. I do not want the value of my house to depreciate, It's our ticket out.

I don't even know if more social housing would mean that? There's so many new social houses being built in the county I live in already.

EasternStandard · 11/05/2024 19:23

mathanxiety · 11/05/2024 19:20

Britons like to assume they're superior to Americans who vote for Trump amd his ilk, but after reading the opinions posted here, I'm not so sure.

If Rand Paul (R) Kentucky, stood for election on this thread he'd be elected in a landslide.

Well if you vote him in then obviously it’s your electorate who are keen

I don’t think Trump is as popular here

mathanxiety · 11/05/2024 19:20

Maelil01 · 11/05/2024 18:30

You missed the bit where you explained where all the money comes from! “Higher taxes” doesn’t cover it - are you saying those who work (very) hard to support their own families should also pay for others’?

Britons like to assume they're superior to Americans who vote for Trump amd his ilk, but after reading the opinions posted here, I'm not so sure.

If Rand Paul (R) Kentucky, stood for election on this thread he'd be elected in a landslide.

ManchesterLu · 11/05/2024 19:16

Hateam · 11/05/2024 11:51

One often used phrase is on MN is, "We should be teaching this in our schools."

If we taught everything in our schools thar MNers what us to, there'd never be time to teach anything else.

Yeah. I think parents need to teach life skills, schools need to educate subjects that parents can't.

FaeryRing · 11/05/2024 19:16

@Desecratedcoconut I honestly don’t know what’s causing it but there has been a massive rise in special needs and a gradual decline in the development of younger children. The number of children in our small town alone who are non verbal at 5 is staggering. I don’t think it’s a case of teaching them to do up a coat and hold a pencil, it’s more that they actually aren’t capable.

OP posts:
5128gap · 11/05/2024 19:14

Scarletttulips · 11/05/2024 19:07

. IME of working with people who are in greater need of services provided by the state

Interesting you think that’s the states job and not the employers.

I don't understand? What employer?

Desecratedcoconut · 11/05/2024 19:13

Yeah, I mean views and opinions of teachers are important but it feels like unless we can get to grips with what is going on, then the gap in actual knowledge is filled with a lot of assumptions.

I would like to know if there actually is a great decline in school preparedness firstly and what that looks like one year to the other. I suppose the questions get more difficult because once you start looking at the who and where in the equation it's a lot quicker and cheaper to stigmatise rather than un-riddle and rectify the problem.

There is a report which suggests that teachers feel that up to 50% of children aren't ready for school at the outset. This could be a major problem or we just could find that these are mostly the March-August kids and we could offer a second round of new students in April for those who aren't ready to make the jump straight off the starting block. This would be kinder to the kids and less frustrating for the teachers.

It's probably a whole lot more complicated and logistically difficult than that but if someone isn't gathering and collating this data it a bit useless to guess.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 11/05/2024 19:12

The state or government is voted in with an understanding that there is a responsibility both ways. It's a form of contract based on promises and manifestos which are frequently reneged upon once a party is in power.

So what do you think the state's responsibilities are?

Sunny678 · 11/05/2024 19:12

I'm a teacher and one child in my class gets picked up and dropped off by the headmaster every morning and afternoon because his dad doesn't drive. We also feed some children in the mornings as the parents either forget toor they 'don't have time'
I've been asked to do speech therapy and anger management sessions for children in my class. It's crazy

5128gap · 11/05/2024 19:11

RosesAndHellebores · 11/05/2024 19:06

In that case it has happened under every government forever. Perhaps we have to accept and acknowledge that some folk will always be dysfunctional. Laudunum, Gin, Cannabis, etc. At least we no longer have baby farms and work houses. Money is not the answer, look at Constance Martin.

Perhaps we have to accept there will.always be fecklessness, mental health issues and general neglect and stop facilitating the parents but protect the children. It is Perhaps time that some parents faced consequences and I am not persuaded that social services has the the solution or has had it for the last half dozen generations. Regrettably an excuse culture has prevailed.

Most of the measures in place are to protect children. Benefits so they can eat, housing so they're not on the streets, support in schools because they're not getting it anywhere else, tooth brushing so their teeth don't rot. The way the support is provided has been chosen not to sheild parents from consequences, but quite simply, because its the cheapest. If you withdraw this support and criminalise parents who don't provide it themselves for their children, the cost to the public purse will soar.

RosesAndHellebores · 11/05/2024 19:10

UndertheCedartree · 11/05/2024 19:09

I would have thought most DC starting school in nappies have SEN. In the past they would have been at a special school .

Do we want that now?

Greengablesfables · 11/05/2024 19:09

FaeryRing · 11/05/2024 19:02

Well let’s move on and discuss personal responsibilities then. Which responsibilities do you believe individuals should have, if any? Is there anything which isn’t the responsibility of the state, in your view? (Genuinely asking)

Quite.

FaeryRing · 11/05/2024 19:09

mrsdineen2 · 11/05/2024 19:07

The falling UK birth rate is a causing concern for people more educated than you or me. We'll be grateful in decades to come for children these women are having, IF we invest in the kids' futures now.

I'm still staggered that you've openly come on here to complain about the money spent on ensuring a child doesn't die during childbirth, doesn't die screaming of preventable causes in childhood, and is taught to read and write. I've read some nasty, nasty opinions on social media, but this is a new low.

We won’t be grateful if the child becomes enmeshed in a cycle of benefits and doesn’t work themselves, which is much more likely if the parent is.

I won’t even reply to that second bit as it’s a total distortion of what I said and you know it’s absolutely false.

OP posts:
UndertheCedartree · 11/05/2024 19:09

RosesAndHellebores · 11/05/2024 14:20

Hmm
I was at primary school in the 60s, secondary in the 70s. I think then there was more personal responsibility, however, at primary our lunch was served on China plates with knives and forks and we had beakers and water available at the table. We learnt not to spill the water and put our knives and forks together nicely, most of us could anyway.

At secondary we had allocated lunch tables and each year the 6th formers left and the first formers joined. Tables had 8 people on them from different years. We had to forge relationships and get along. The two eldest queued with trays to take back to the table enough food for 8, which they served like "mother".

At primary we were taught how to write a letter and address an envelope. At secondary our head took us for one period a week in what was nominally RE. She told us also about paying bills, abusive men, careful choices, getting pregnant, etc.

Those were valuable experiences, school delivered them as part of normal life. With polystyrene boxes and plastic cutlery much has been lost. I do think those who run schools are largely culpable but in my view we have turned into a nation that values multiple, often worthless qualifications at the expense of a broad education.

All my teachers seemed able to write well and appeared very well educated. My children are now in their late 20s and their teachers did not and I would have had little faith in them teaching table manners.

OTH we ate sweets in the playground, had little or no homework at primary and drinking water was in short supply.

Personally I believe something has gone wrong somewhere but that more state won't help because the standards of a modern state just won't cut it.

Twenty to twenty five years ago, however, I don't recall any 3 to 4 year olds starting school in nappies and I just don't understand what has gone on there. Nurseries for 2.5 and up were draconian in their expectations, rightly or wrongly.

Edited

I would have thought most DC starting school in nappies have SEN. In the past they would have been at a special school .

KTheGrey · 11/05/2024 19:09

mathanxiety · 11/05/2024 18:58

Lol @ "obviously".
It's not obvious at all to many here on MN that delivering babies into this world is a net social contribution. The Tories have already capped child benefit.

How would you classify women giving birth to babies they know to be disabled in various ways? Downs? Spina bifida? Tay-Sachs?
Should pregnant women be screened and if their babies are not going to be net contributors, given the choice of abortion or funding all future medical care and education for the babies themselves?

The "utility to society" or "social contribution" route is a perilously slippery one.

Every single Briton alive has engaged in behaviour that comes with health risks, including traveling in a car or bus or train. Most have drunk alcohol. Most are now overweight. Most don't get enough exercise.

The slippery slope is a ln argument that fails as it is a logical fallacy or reasoning error.

People can think what they like. I am telling you that I wasn't saying what you thought I was saying. I would prefer you not attribute opinions to me that are not what I have said.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 11/05/2024 19:08

RosesAndHellebores · 11/05/2024 19:07

Eh?

Just about to respond similarly....

RosesAndHellebores · 11/05/2024 19:07

Scarletttulips · 11/05/2024 19:07

. IME of working with people who are in greater need of services provided by the state

Interesting you think that’s the states job and not the employers.

Eh?

mrsdineen2 · 11/05/2024 19:07

FaeryRing · 11/05/2024 19:00

No but I begrudge the mother! Contraception is free, highly effective and there are many methods on offer. How there can be so many ‘accidents’ is baffling!

The falling UK birth rate is a causing concern for people more educated than you or me. We'll be grateful in decades to come for children these women are having, IF we invest in the kids' futures now.

I'm still staggered that you've openly come on here to complain about the money spent on ensuring a child doesn't die during childbirth, doesn't die screaming of preventable causes in childhood, and is taught to read and write. I've read some nasty, nasty opinions on social media, but this is a new low.

Scarletttulips · 11/05/2024 19:07

. IME of working with people who are in greater need of services provided by the state

Interesting you think that’s the states job and not the employers.

RosesAndHellebores · 11/05/2024 19:06

MistressoftheDarkSide · 11/05/2024 18:58

The state has to provide as it's responsible for creating economic deprivation hand in glove with global leaders and organisations milking the poorest to make the rich richer. That's the reason personal responsibility is slipping, people are giving up. If the state doesn't provide it will end up with the unpleasant kind of anarchy and there will be even more blood on their hands.

In that case it has happened under every government forever. Perhaps we have to accept and acknowledge that some folk will always be dysfunctional. Laudunum, Gin, Cannabis, etc. At least we no longer have baby farms and work houses. Money is not the answer, look at Constance Martin.

Perhaps we have to accept there will.always be fecklessness, mental health issues and general neglect and stop facilitating the parents but protect the children. It is Perhaps time that some parents faced consequences and I am not persuaded that social services has the the solution or has had it for the last half dozen generations. Regrettably an excuse culture has prevailed.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 11/05/2024 19:05

FaeryRing · 11/05/2024 19:03

Did I then follow that up with ‘as requested by all parents without exception’?

Given that it wasn't parents at all behind the initiative.... well, nuff said.