To think the level of state involvement many posters expect is bonkers?

Pretty much

Many were also single without families to consider, my dh works in a,warehouse ,quite a lot his colleagues are from Poland and other European countries, its common with the people he works with to live communally and share bills and food etc and a lot send money back home, yes I'm sure there are some people who move with their families
But it's a lot harder to do than as single person

Exactly, thank you for putting it far better than I ever could!

Gone are the days when you left school at 16 and worked your way up, that simply isn't possible anymore!

We Brits are stuck in the Little Britain mentality. Most don’t leave the locality of where they were born. That’s really restrictive and if I’m honest - a bit weird - in today’s world. So much to see and do - so many opportunities.

The people who are willing to go out of their comfort zone and their local area will be successful. Those who aren’t won’t. So we are now in a situation where the majority of Brits are floundering on the state and expecting those who get out there to pay for it all.

Well in that case, bearing in mind that all consumed goods and services are taxed multiple times, no-one gets anything entirely for free. Money is a tool that gets recirculated around the economy regardless of its source. Research by the Rowntree Foundation has proved regularly that the number of people who have never worked or contributed is tiny compared to those who have paid in "something" through work, even intermittently.

Taking more than you give is the result of artificially stimulated markets, because we do not work with true free market capitalism.

Your comment about degree holders moving to where the work is is partly the reason why areas decline. If all the people with the potential to earn move to a fee centralised areas then their hometown crumble due to lack of investment and community, which used to somewhat ameliorate the necessity for state intervention and support vanishes.

It started in the 80s and continues apace.

He doesn't need a kick up the arse, he is already willing and able to get a job in what he is qualified in, he has just passed his driving test last month and is using his small inheritance to buy himself a car and insure it in order to be able to travel to jobs that are in his field, the thing is he has no experience yet, he finished his degree in 2021 actually got his certificate on the day of his 21st birthday, but unfortunately covid got in the way of him actually furthering himself he also wants to do his masters. He has always worked and paid tax since he left uni though so he isn't a drain on society, I actually have all my children and my granddaughter living with me, so I am not just supporting myself I am supporting them too because that is what families do. No arse kicking required just care and support, in order to get them to where they want to go in life. They can't afford to rent or buy, so i'm stuck with them, it's far from ideal, but I will do whatever I can to help them so they don't have to rely on the state!

@MistressoftheDarkSide yes you are right about fire services and the police. However, I think you will find that waste management whilst provided by LA'S is subcontracted to private companies.

Nevertheless, I don't think we, as a family, have ever received any services for free. We contribute through income tax, road tax and community charge. The latter, of course is progressive.

@RosesAndHellebores

Off the top of my head, I'd point to police, fire service, waste disposal which are state / LA provided via taxation of course but there aren't viable alternatives in the private sector as yet - though give it time I suppose.

Also defence, which may or may not become a bigger issue overall depending on whose writing the script for the "theatre of war" on a global scale.

I'm certainly not going to disagree with your opinion of the institutions you have mentioned as I'm currently trying to navigate social care for the elderly - both my parents in their 80s are in a shitstorm and are being failed massively by health and housing bureaucracy and legislation.

Which brings me to another point - legislation protects (allegedly and with various degrees of success) us on the consumer front etc, health, safety etc. How necessary and effective it all is - well that's another debate altogether.

Surely if a young person is capable of taking a first class honours degree, they are capable of moving to where opportunities are. If mine didn't do that if necessary, they'd be kicked very hard up the backside.

I completely agree with that and I’ve been saying it for years. I’d add dentists to that.

The most accurate description of the MN demographic I’ve ever read.

@Phineyj I think the training of the doctors and teachers needs to crank up a gear. I also think bursaries should be given to doctors, nurses and teachers on the proviso they deliver 10 full-time years or the equivalent thereof to the state in return. That always raises a storm on MN however with people claiming it erodes freedom and is equivalent to being indentured rather than accepting nobody shoukd get owt for nowt if they can provide for themselves.

That’s the thing, isn’t it? Healthcare professionals in the private sector were trained in and by the NHS, same with teachers. I do agree with this though:

I would argue strongly against the state spending more to provide a higher quantity of crap services. People who need services need higher quality provision.

newnamethanks · Today 08:33
Gosh, torybotsRus have started early today. Or is it reform4u?

And this is why we're in the mess we're in.

As long as people think as crudely as this, with no desire to look afresh at things, and no deep knowledge or understanding of nuance, we'll be stuck with tribal politics.

I think you need to leave your tribal prejudice behind for a moment and consider that there might be some point in listening to people who don't agree with you. I'd bet there are a lot of them. I'm not tied to a political party (never found one that matches my diverse views) but it really makes me despair when people are labelled 'Tory scum'. Well, that's about half the population that some people feel good about despising!!

My hero was the Labour MP Frank Field, who sadly died recently - and didn't get the recognition he deserved. He was someone who cared about people deeply but knew that sometimes, tough love (sorry - awful American cliche) is the best way of helping them. He was devoid of party-political crap and would genuinely say what he thought - which sometimes wasn't what his Labour colleagues wanted to hear. He was a brave and sincere man, and absolutely head and shoulders above the sort of politicians we have now. Similarly, Alan Johnson.

There've also been some Tory politicians over the years who've tried sincerely to make society better. Please don't reduce things to party politics - it's more complicated than that.

Railways and utilities are privatised. Defence and covid vaccines I shall grant you.

Perhaps @RosesAndHellebores also account for the infrastructure that you use: roads, railways, utilities and the indivisible stuff like defence?

The Covid vaccines.

Training of the doctors and teachers.

Having the money to opt out gives more choice, for sure, but none of us can really operate in isolation from the state.

"Just by being resident in the UK, we are all state dependent to a degree"

Could you define that statement further please? "Nationalised provision is now restricted to the NHS and education". Our DC were independently educated from 8 and 13 (could have been from 4 but there were good local options until we made a disastrous choice in relation to a holy grail cofe secondary for dd. We have private healthcare although are registered with a GP who monitors the two chronic conditions I have but it isn't actually necessary. The only bit of the NHS that can't presently be purchased is A&E.

The state provided us with: three births (one was dire) and crap post natal care; two HV interactions which I declined thereafter because the service was crap; education at primary from 4 until 8 for DS, 4 until 11 for DD (tutors and parental enrichment were required and the ethos was not that anyone should take personal responsibility); two years secondary for DD (disaster both academically and pastorally); we have paid the DCs uni fees and they have no student loans; the DC were immunised, free eye tests for the DC. I received child benefit when it was universal and continued when it wasn't and DH paid the tax. DH had an emergency appendectomy in 1993, DS had a hospital.admission as a baby for bronchiolitis - the asthma follow up was poor - so we switched to private which cracked it in two appointments. The DC had a couple of breaks via A&E and the NHS refused any physio - again a couple of sessions privately made the world of difference. Both DC were refused grommets on the NHS for absolutely rank ears because their speech was well developed - it was fine evidently for them to be in constant pain and constantly taking antibiotics. When DD had some mental health issues the state declined her support and our interaction with CAMHS was deeply disappointing and I don't think it was all about resourcing, rather a structurally dysfunctional and toxic provision. Our GP told us to Google a therapist off the Internet.rather than help with advice or a referral.

In our early 60s I would say the state has provided us with nothing of acceptable or high quality. We are indeed net contributors and in spades. At the height if DH's career we paid £250,000 in tax one year. It's a chicken and egg situation and I am not prepared to pay more tax unless standards significantly improve. I would argue strongly against the state spending more to provide a higher quantity of crap services. People who need services need higher quality provision.

Finally, a perfect example.of where the system is an arse. Because DH and I are over 60, we are now entitled to free prescriptions and free eye tests! We both still work full-time and both have a six figure income.

GentlemanJohnny · Today 09:21
Phineyj · Yesterday 12:21
Hence the call for schools to do everything. It's the only institution many people are familiar with and the only one they feel they can influence.

See: schools doing things that were previously done by local authorities, the NHS, social services, youth services, housing.

(Sorry, Gentleman and Phineyj - I couldn't work out which of you has posted the above.)

I don't deny that an element of social work is required in some school now, but I'm strongly against it being dumped on teachers. Being a professional teacher was always a demanding job and I think now it's reached breaking point for some dedicated people.

Of course teachers have a role in spotting warning signs of all kinds of things to with safeguarding or say, radicalisation. From being expected to potty-train infants to dealing with the results of neglect and abuse, I think far, far too much is asked of teachers now.

In my experience the majority of teachers are highly conscientious and this is their Achilles heel - they are always easy meat for anyone (govts, local authorities, parents) who want to a) make them take on other tasks than teaching children and b) take responsibility when these things go wrong. They can be their own worst enemies because, like nurses and doctors, they care, and that gets exploited.

Having thought about it for many years (this sounds callous, but hear me out) I wish teachers would strike for their own interests. Usually a bleeding-heart cause to do with their students is cited as a reason for taking action. If teachers were a bit more assertive and yes, selfish, they would be happier and they'd have better working conditions which would lead to happier teachers and happier students - it would filter down. And (and this makes me cross), if they were more 'selfish' about their own welfare, society and parents would respect them more.

Come on this isn't true, politicians are always talking about taxpayers money, saying 'its your money' etc. I think politicians want people to understand this.
I accept many votes don't though...which is a worry.

@ChishiyaBat

I know what you mean about the further / higher education thing - I was one of the last cohort to get a free college course and a full grant.

The reason why compulsory education to 18 was introduced was to massage employment figures because of the lack of entry level jobs for the less academic who used to leave school at 16 and go into entry level jobs with prospect of progression that simply don't exist any more.

University education is now available to more, but at a price if course, because it's been turned into an industry in itself.

It's framed as "any degree is a good degree" because even entry level jobs demand one, yet only certain degrees are valued, and it's not about pursuing a passion or actual education it's about turning out good employees. In theory that is, as your son's situation illustrates.

But again, if most 18 - 21 year olds are "in education" it keeps another cohort off the unemployed figures.

The gig economy, zero hours contracts and the carrot of riches via Internet entrepreneurship have sprung into being at a vast pace, further altering what the employment landscape truly looks like in the modern world.

Again it's a big, complex picture with constant change and instability at its core.

Do you remember when they would give you vaccinations for polio on a sugar cube?😃

I didn't say you did go to uni, I didn't either, but there were more opportunities for higher education back then, whether that was uni, polytechnic. Night school, college, apprentiships and other training.

I live in a rural area, which is extremely poor, it wasn't always when we had industry it was far richer. My area is now the poorest in my country. There are no jobs, no housing, no transport, nothing. It's hard to imagine if you live in a city, but it's bleak. Most of the jobs around here are 0 hour contracts in retail or hospitality, even though there are only 4 hotels across 2 towns and it's all bargain shops or one the 4 supermarkets who pay nmw and will give no more than a 16 hour contract.
All of the headteachers came together and sent a letter to all school parents which I will post if anyone would like to read it, it's a sad read though.

it's not a case of not being responsible or as easy as moving out of the area, it's just broken. So i'm glad your son managed to do well and get his dream job, but he would definitely be in the minority around here. My 24 year old has a 1st class degree with honours, but that is honestly useless around here because there are no opportunities.

Judging people by your own standards and what is available in your area is not how it is for a large percentage of the country.

Yes but why just that figure? Why just council houses when dependency is other stuff included

They are provided by the state you’re right, but so is a whole raft of other stuff

On your link the top three in the graph are state pension, UC and PIP

I am comparing the number of people claiming any benefit at all today, to the number who were in a council house in the 1970s as the percentages are pretty similar and both are a benefit provided by the state. DWP benefits statistics: February 2023 - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)