To think the level of state involvement many posters expect is bonkers?

This!

Actually I would amend that to 'population who seem unable or are unwilling to show any level of personal responsibility'.

I’ve quoted the percentage in pp. it’s gone up for overall state dependency

I’ll have whatever you’re having.

They are both forms of government assistance that were practically the same so provided a good comparison. You're right though, it must have actually been much higher than 30% back then as I've only included council housing. The numbers have not remained fairly stead, they must be lower now after all.

To the pp who said the expectation for people to move for work arose in the 80s, that isn't quite correct, it principally arose after the agricultural revolution and significantly so in the industrial revolution. It has actually happened throughout time. Let's not forget the Mayflower and the Brits who went to Australia, New Zealand, Canada and Africa in the 50s, 60s and 70s.

There is a significant issue in the UK relating to respect for the vocational trades. Where would be be without our hairdressers, barbers, mechanics, electricians, plumbers, carpenters, etc. These roles are not often put forward in schools and neither, in my experience, do many in education value or suppprt them as they should and discuss them as viable career aspirations yet all the aforementioned are often successful small business holders. Instead we have curated a society built on cup cakes.

I am 80 miles from my mother; DH 240 from his. They are both in their late 80s. MIL has carers, paid for by DH daily and this will be upped fairly soon. My mother has developed some heart problems. I'll care for her or pay for her care.

DH could not have stayed in Yorkshire, his niche Bar does not exist there. It is London centric. DS got an academic role, as rare as hens' teeth because one came up in the North. If he hadn't been oreoared to go for it, he would still be a Post Doc Researcher. DD's bf will likely be seconded to Germany - it's exciting for them.

My grandmother's family left Ireland in the 1860s, grandfather's fled Russia in 1917, my father came to UK from Berlin, via Hamburg in 1938. If they had stayed they would be dead. Too many Brits have no idea of the imperatives to succeed. Even DH's grandad who went down the mine on his 14th birthday, joined the army on his 18th to escape to a better life. His views on why families wanted to send their young down the mine and the joy of the mining communities were bound in experience and hardship. He had no truck for those who wanted to perpetuate mining communities and that lifestyle.

All those mentioned above had the grit to escape and succeed and not one expected life on a plate.

@Woohow these are the figures, also on ONS

Why are you just limiting state dependency to council houses?

The link you posted has all the various forms - pension, UC, PIP and so on

That's not always,the case even for apprenticeship, you need maths and English at grade four or above, there are many kids including my own who really struggle with maths and English ,
And there is also a lot of competition for the best apprenticeship, s so it's not aa easy as yoy make out for less academic teenagers to go into plumbing ,etc would love my son to have a trade, he was critically ill last year just before he took his GCSE,s so his grades were badly affected ,he's doing maths and English again so fingers crossed.

I am extremely happy with my life, I have a wonderful family, a roof over my head that is my own and I did all this by working low paid jobs, the ones that are not attractive to others, the jobs that people looked down on and said I needed to better. I am actually qualified in a trade, but the market is oversaturated and I would make little to no money, in fact I earn the same working retail, so that is what I do. My mental health is good, I have no stress and I am extremely lucky that is the case! I am a failure in many peoples eyes though.

Of course I'm looking at a percentage, I was replying to a post that made a claim about the percentage receiving government assistance increasing to nearly 50%, I was showing it had broadly stayed the same at around 30%.

Yes, we have severely underinvested in infrastructure as we have such short-sighted politicians but of course you have to look at these things as a percentage or it's meaningless.

As the population has grown so has the tax revenue therefore we had more money to spend on upgrading the infrastructure but we didn't do it. Most countries population has increased in this time and they had the foresight to invest so it isn't a problem.

Just to add there are still trade courses available at FE colleges and from the amounts I have paid out in recent years tradesmen do very well indeed and tradespeople are needed everywhere!

I work in a school. Parental expectations have increased massively over the last few years, but the capacity of other agencies (health and social care, for example) to provide support has drastically reduced. Consequently we often feel we're being asked to take on more and more responsibility for families day to day lives that goes well beyond Education.

Like many schools we have set up a food bank and a pre-loved clothing bank, we wash and dry children's clothes when they come in filthy, we help parents who struggle with reading and writing to fill in housing and benefit forms, we show parents how to set up parental controls on their children's electronic devices and we provide breakfast, snacks, waterbottles and basic equipment for children who otherwise wouldn't have them. We run workshops for parents on getting your child into a good bedtime routine, making decent meals for your child on a budget and managing challenging behaviour in a way that doesn't involve hitting or shouting...things that definitely come under the category of parenting rather than education but are needed.

It's still not enough. We have always provided a high level of support for a handful of families who are living in difficult circumstances or simply aren't capable of meetings their children's practical and emotional needs due to their own issues and are happy to do so, but the numbers who need this support have grown rapidly and our school budget has dwindled so it's a struggle. The support from other agencies simply isn't there.

We also have an increasing number of middle class parents who have the resources and the ability but still expect us to take responsibility for many basic elements of parenting. I've had these parents tell me they can't possibly toilet train their own children, pick them up from school when they're sick, read with them, take them for an eye test or teach them how to use cutlery because they're "too busy". They seem genuinely annoyed at the suggestion they might do these things. They seem shocked when I don't agree that the school should take responsibility for finding them an afterschool childminder, for example.

So yes, I agree that some peoples expectations of state involvement are ridiculous. But I am also frustrated that the state isn't fulfilling its obligations to the most vulnerable in society and my staff and I are picking up the pieces.

The mindset of staying near family is a hard one.Very old friends have children who refuse to consider moving from the expensive area in which they grew up.They’re both low earners and so are locked into renting at high prices and being unable to save up for the unaffordable houses around them. I imagine they could be getting some state benefit to afford the rents.

My children have both moved away for better work prospects and for the lifestyle they want. I wish they lived closer but that’s just how it is.

I think that part of the problem is that what people were once content with - affordable home, family life, a bit of fun on the weekends and freedom and time to pursue talents and passions for their own sakes have all been turned into consumer pursuits.

If you don't want more - more money, more status symbols, more of anything really, it's seen as a bit of a failing. The worst thing you can do is be content with your lot in life so it seems things are being engineered so that's the impossibility as paying for the basics consumes every moment - not for individual benefit, but to keep feeding the machine, else society will judge you.

Yes, and the horrors or celebrity culture, reinforced by social media, have done a lot of damage.

A careers teacher I knew often reported that the non-academic boys he worked with had wildly unrealistic expectations for their employment. He would invite experienced professional tradesmen (plumbers, builders, electricians etc) in to give talks and the boys would sneer and say 'I'm not working for that money - I'm going to be a footballer/model/'celebrity. The unrealistic expectations set up by the culture of glamour and celebrity is really pernicious. These boys thought that learning a trade was far beneath them.

I'm afraid I used to be a bit cruel when I encountered this attitude. A 15-year old boy I taught who wouldn't even lift his pen, when challenged about his future prospects, said "I don't care, Miss, I'm going to be a footballer when I leave school". I know I was being a bitch but I couldn't resist asking innocently 'Oh, so which club have you been spotted for?" It was a complete revelation to him that if you have any chance of being a pro footballer, you'll have been talent-spotted at lower secondary age and be involved in training already.

Well that is what is happening. Hence state dependency being high. The UK isn’t attractive to high earners or skilled workers. We are competing in a global market for these people. Our issue is that too many people don’t want to make the UK attractive to work in. Far too easy to pull those who are successful down.

But you’re looking at % rather than the numbers - the population has increased significantly by then so the infrastructure just isn’t there.

My brother moved away to the Midlands I stayed, so i'm not saying not to move away, I am simply asking what happens when everyone moves away and there is no one left to do the caring, hospitality, retail, cleaning and other low paid jobs? Someone who stacks shelves is just as valuable as anyone else, but we have lost sight of that!

I think that part of the problem is that what people were once content with - affordable home, family life, a bit of fun on the weekends and freedom and time to pursue talents and passions for their own sakes have all been turned into consumer pursuits.

If you don't want more - more money, more status symbols, more of anything really, it's seen as a bit of a failing. The worst thing you can do is be content with your lot in life so it seems things are being engineered so that's the impossibility as paying for the basics consumes every moment - not for individual benefit, but to keep feeding the machine, else society will judge you.

I stand by my observations that "progress" and profit at all costs is not good for the human psyche.

There were opportunities to work your way up then though even in low paying jobs. Those jobs don't exist anymore though. My 16 year old is studying engineering, but if he wasn't I don't know what he would do there would be nothing for him, he would end uo in a low paying job with no way to drag himself up the ladder!

ChishiyaBat · Today 11:11

I get what you're saying - I had to deal with my mother's decline and I was 200 miles away - it was a hellish year. Lots of hours on the motorway, and constant battling with the relevant authorities etc.

But that can't be a reason for never moving away from the family home - where would be be if everyone insisted on staying next door to their relations?

That isn't what is meant.
The issue is people who do not want to have a 'clubcard' .They do not want to share their shopping information with god knows who.They are being financially penalised to the extent they may feel coerced into getting one , and basically having their details shared against their will.This goes against the spirit all the data protection stuff that the government has introduced.
It is legitimately a government issue I think.

So to all these posters saying move to work, what happens when everyone leaves and there is no one left to pick up the pieces?

I am a prime example, I stayed in my area after having my children, I worked and contributed to the economy, I cared for my children, then my dearly departed Nan and my god was that the hardest job I have ever had, it's soul destroying watching your love one decline and suffer. So if I had moved away who would have done that? It would have cost the state £100,000's, no doubt I will do the same for my parents, so again i've saved the state a fortune!

Your comment about degree holders moving to where the work is is partly the reason why areas decline. If all the people with the potential to earn move to a fee centralised areas then their hometown crumble due to lack of investment and community, which used to somewhat ameliorate the necessity for state intervention and support vanishes.

Yes, but being realistic, some very rural areas will never be able to provide jobs for those with certain qualifications and it's unfair to expect them to. If you come from a lovely rural area with no large urban centres (as I did, long ago!) and do a professional degree then you are clearly not going to find local employment. I don't know why this comes as a surprise to people? Or that they feel it's somehow an unreasonable expectation that they should move for work?

As someone upthread said, some people have had to move to a different country to find work. Moving to another area of the UK shouldn't be beyond most graduates. And...personal responsibility again...if you know in advance that you're not going to move from your native village, than train for something which will fit in with the local economy.

It's the same with people who won't move because they think it's a God-given right to live next door to family, or to be able to afford to buy in the village or town they were born in. I couldn't have bought a house in the village I grew up in - and there's no law of the universe that says I should.

I really think we've become ab it pathetic over this sort of thing! Our grandparents' /great grandparents' generation fought a terrible war - which required a hell of a lot more personal inconvenience than moving to another area for work.

There definitely needs to be more options I have a non academic 17 year old university isn't appropriate for him
But I left school in 1990 and those that went straight into work at 16 generally went into low paying jobs were there was not much room to work their way up