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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think the level of state involvement many posters expect is bonkers?

987 replies

FaeryRing · 11/05/2024 11:47

It seems like there is nothing the state shouldn’t be responsible for any more! Feeding your kids, getting them to school, hiring ‘behaviour specialists’ for every classroom because parents don’t want to discipline their own children, giving you money towards virtually anything you ask for because it’s not fair you have to pay for anything yourself.. I find it absolutely wild and don’t think it’s at all realistic or representative of what most adults believe?

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3WildOnes · 12/05/2024 12:48

RosesAndHellebores · 12/05/2024 12:34

All the opportunities other children have? Or nutrition, a roof and warmth?

I've said in previous posts. We funded schools. Breakfast clubs, extra curricular activities, youth clubs, holiday clubs, childcare all free at the point of access.

BIossomtoes · 12/05/2024 12:46

FaeryRing · 12/05/2024 12:45

What makes them good schools?

Ask the parents who move heaven and earth to get their kids into them. I never played that game.

Woohow · 12/05/2024 12:46

EasternStandard · 12/05/2024 12:34

Here you go. I think you’ve gone a bit off piste by focusing purely on council housing. State dependency is the full range not just that

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/government-britons-jeremy-hunt-mel-stride-nhs-b2267161.html

I compared receiving benefits to council housing as it was readily available data. Do you have the net dependency rates for the 1970s because I can't find them. The article says it's the highest 'on record' but doesn't say when they started recording this so it's not that helpful.

RosesAndHellebores · 12/05/2024 12:45

As I said previously there are significant issues with the quality of state provision. I'm also of the view that the zeal for every child to obtain a full clutch of high graded GCSEs has been counter productive and has created a generation of non academic children who feel failures and many average/just above children who don't feel good enough. I believe it's a significant factor in the growth of mh issues and has led to people feeling inadequate and not valued.

FaeryRing · 12/05/2024 12:45

BIossomtoes · 12/05/2024 12:42

Some have much greater opportunities than others. Surely that’s obvious or you wouldn’t have sharp elbowed parents moving into the catchment areas of good schools.

What makes them good schools?

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MistressoftheDarkSide · 12/05/2024 12:43

Just been reading round end stage capitalism and post capitalism. Interesting. Very much feeds into this debate I feel.

Leah5678 · 12/05/2024 12:43

mathanxiety · 12/05/2024 01:33

Provide early and effective support. Invest in public services, housing, education and training, and the NHS, and it will pay off. This is relevant for disabled people but also the other social problems discussed on this thread.

Employer attitudes is another issue that needs addressing. Many businesses no longer want or can't afford to provide training on the job. They also don't want to hire longterm unemployed or disabled people. They don't want or feel unable to make adjustments or offer flexible work options. That needs to change. Encourage and support businesses to do this.

Agree with this, @Againname

I'd also add, go after men who don't pay child support when they opt out of family life.

Where I live, the state goes after deadbeat fathers both within the state, in other states, and in other countries. The state tracks them down via postal records, the National New Hire Reporting Service, the Federal Parent Locator Service, the State Parent Locator Service, the state Department of Employment Security (unemployment), and the Secretary of State Office (driver's license and other ID services).

Wages and monetary welfare benefits can be garnished, non custodial parents can be forced to pay for health insurance or add children to employer-provided health insurance, and the courts will issue a warrant for arrest or for contempt of court if a parent goes two months overdue on payments.

Yep big agree. Taxpayers would save so much money if deadbeats were forced to pay an adequate amount of money for the children they created.
Then dead beats have the nerve to Moan the mother who's actually looking after the child is a "gold-digger" for expecting him to pay any money towards the child ever. We should start mass shaming the deadbeats instead of the parents who actually sticks around.

And no I do not have children with a deadbeat but I still feel strongly about it 🤷🏻‍♀️

Another kinda controversial thing which hasn't been mentioned much on this thread is the effect immigration has had on house prices/rent/amount of spare council houses. And "build more" can only go so far because this country is a tiny island. Lots of people are struggling because they can't afford somewhere reasonably priced to live but the government does practically nothing about the thousands of people immigrating here every month

BIossomtoes · 12/05/2024 12:42

FaeryRing · 12/05/2024 12:38

Every child has education opportunities don’t they?

Some have much greater opportunities than others. Surely that’s obvious or you wouldn’t have sharp elbowed parents moving into the catchment areas of good schools.

FaeryRing · 12/05/2024 12:42

ArseholeCatIsABlackAndWhiteCat · 12/05/2024 12:41

Every child has education opportunities don’t they?

They don't have the same education opportunities though.

How would you ensure that?

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ArseholeCatIsABlackAndWhiteCat · 12/05/2024 12:41

Every child has education opportunities don’t they?

They don't have the same education opportunities though.

CoffeeCantata · 12/05/2024 12:40

angstridden2 · Today 11:39
Just to add there are still trade courses available at FE colleges and from the amounts I have paid out in recent years tradesmen do very well indeed and tradespeople are needed everywhere!

I completely agree. I remember, years ago, a very pretentious colleague announcing to the office that she was planning to have 3 children and hoped they would be a writer, a musician and a dancer. An older and wiser colleague said 'Oh, no! You want a plumber, a builder and an electrician!' How right she was!

We've been lucky and unlucky in finding good tradesmen. Sometimes it's impossible to find anyone - so there are shortages. But we've also found some amazing people who take pride in their work, have really high standards and are totally professional...ooh, and pretty wealthy, I think!

ChishiyaBat · 12/05/2024 12:39

Gruffallowhydidntyouknow · 12/05/2024 12:19

No. You don't have children you can't afford or care for. It's appalling. If you are not even managing to feed your children 3 healthy meals a say you are failing as a parent.

Edited

You are failing as a human if you refuse to see that many people who are working cannot give their children this, it's not just the feckless "keep breeding despite being on 30k benefits a year" people. Food bank use has from around 60k people using in 2010 to almost 3million users last year!

FaeryRing · 12/05/2024 12:38

BIossomtoes · 12/05/2024 12:36

Those and education opportunities so they have at least a chance of a better life.

Every child has education opportunities don’t they?

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FaeryRing · 12/05/2024 12:38

Plus DLA is projected to go through the roof (if it isn’t already), that’s not me criticising any one individual but surely even the ‘big staters’ among you can see this is not sustainable?

Disability benefits spending is forecast to be £39.1 billion in Great Britain in 2023-24. We forecast spending to increase to £58.1 billion in 2028-29. That would represent around 4 per cent of total public spending, and 2 per cent of GDP.

The latter figure is the same as the the funding allocated to ALL schools in the U.K.!!

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BIossomtoes · 12/05/2024 12:36

RosesAndHellebores · 12/05/2024 12:34

All the opportunities other children have? Or nutrition, a roof and warmth?

Those and education opportunities so they have at least a chance of a better life.

FaeryRing · 12/05/2024 12:34

3WildOnes · 12/05/2024 12:31

I agree with you that those parents are failing their children 100%. However, I think we as a society would also be failing those children if we didn't step in to make sure that they have all the opportunities that other children have. We don't punish children because they had the misfortune to be botlrn to parents unwilling or unable to provide for them.

I agree, I really do, but we’re reaching a point where the level of need is just increasing and increasing to a point that society can barely keep up with it any more. It was fine when the needs were fairly basic but they’re far more complicated now thanks to drugs, the rise of special needs, an unwillingness for school leavers to take on ‘unglamorous’ jobs and the avalanche of mental health issues.

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EasternStandard · 12/05/2024 12:34

Woohow · 12/05/2024 12:24

But if you mean the post you replied to I cannot really comment on that as putting something in quotation marks but not supplying the source means I cannot verify it's validity.

Here you go. I think you’ve gone a bit off piste by focusing purely on council housing. State dependency is the full range not just that

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/government-britons-jeremy-hunt-mel-stride-nhs-b2267161.html

Record number of Britons dependent on the state – analysis

The Government wants to revamp the benefits system to boost employment numbers that have not returned to pre-pandemic levels amid labour shortages.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/government-britons-jeremy-hunt-mel-stride-nhs-b2267161.html

RosesAndHellebores · 12/05/2024 12:34

3WildOnes · 12/05/2024 12:31

I agree with you that those parents are failing their children 100%. However, I think we as a society would also be failing those children if we didn't step in to make sure that they have all the opportunities that other children have. We don't punish children because they had the misfortune to be botlrn to parents unwilling or unable to provide for them.

All the opportunities other children have? Or nutrition, a roof and warmth?

3WildOnes · 12/05/2024 12:31

Gruffallowhydidntyouknow · 12/05/2024 12:19

No. You don't have children you can't afford or care for. It's appalling. If you are not even managing to feed your children 3 healthy meals a say you are failing as a parent.

Edited

I agree with you that those parents are failing their children 100%. However, I think we as a society would also be failing those children if we didn't step in to make sure that they have all the opportunities that other children have. We don't punish children because they had the misfortune to be botlrn to parents unwilling or unable to provide for them.

Woohow · 12/05/2024 12:24

EasternStandard · 12/05/2024 12:16

Scroll back to post at 11.44

But if you mean the post you replied to I cannot really comment on that as putting something in quotation marks but not supplying the source means I cannot verify it's validity.

Woohow · 12/05/2024 12:22

EasternStandard · 12/05/2024 12:16

Scroll back to post at 11.44

I did, read it again too, did you mean post pandemic? I already replied to that point. The link was about ALL state benefits, it gave the total number of people receiving ANY state benefit as 22.4 million, about 1/3 of the population, about the same percentage as the number of people living in council housing in the 1970s. If you add the number receiving state benefits back then it may well be higher.

Gruffallowhydidntyouknow · 12/05/2024 12:19

3WildOnes · 11/05/2024 12:30

Of course I think patents should provide for their children but I don't think children should suffer because they had the misfortune to be born to parents who are unable or unwilling to provide for them. So I absolutely so support having a large state with higher taxes to support this. I think lots of benefits should be universal so that everyone benefits. I support free school meals, free breakfast clubs, free after school extra curricular activities for children, free childcare, extra funding for schools, etc.

No. You don't have children you can't afford or care for. It's appalling. If you are not even managing to feed your children 3 healthy meals a say you are failing as a parent.

EasternStandard · 12/05/2024 12:16

Woohow · 12/05/2024 12:15

What's pp?

Scroll back to post at 11.44

Woohow · 12/05/2024 12:15

EasternStandard · 12/05/2024 12:12

I’ve quoted the percentage in pp. it’s gone up for overall state dependency

What's pp?