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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think the level of state involvement many posters expect is bonkers?

987 replies

FaeryRing · 11/05/2024 11:47

It seems like there is nothing the state shouldn’t be responsible for any more! Feeding your kids, getting them to school, hiring ‘behaviour specialists’ for every classroom because parents don’t want to discipline their own children, giving you money towards virtually anything you ask for because it’s not fair you have to pay for anything yourself.. I find it absolutely wild and don’t think it’s at all realistic or representative of what most adults believe?

OP posts:
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Leah5678 · 15/05/2024 14:06

BePinkReader · 15/05/2024 14:00

Nope. I have excellent comprehension skills. I was just being overly polite instead of tellingly you how stupid your idea is.

Because how do you identify the shit parents who aren't brushing their kids teeth? Really, how? What's your proposal? Kids on free school meals? Kids involved with social services?

It's impossible to say.

And you can guarantee if there was a system where schools had to try to do so, you'd have MNetters outraged that their DC was one of the few who was judged to have a shit parent so needed a free toothbrush.

So you'd have to give toothbrushes to every DC or none at all.

Yeah I've worked in a school.
The class teachers can tell which kids are being neglected it's always pretty damn obvious.

And it really doesn't matter how "outraged" they are, people like that already get "outraged" over being reported to social services. They can be as outraged as they want if they care so much maybe they should Stop neglecting their kids.

And as the poster above you pointed out it would cost less taxes to give them toothbrushes then is spent on emergency fillings by the NHS.

BePinkReader · 15/05/2024 14:00

Leah5678 · 15/05/2024 13:21

Reading comprehension not your strong point? I didn't say they should give toothbrushes to every single kid just the ones who have shit parents who refuse to buy their kid a toothbrush, that's a very small minority of the populace btw. It would take like what twenty minutes? every year to give a quick toothbrushing lesson.
If teachers have time to teach kids there's 72 genders theyve got time for toothbrushing lessons.

On the other hand what the hell is school for why don't those lazy parents just teach their own kids maths and literacy. Teachers have enough to do.

Nope. I have excellent comprehension skills. I was just being overly polite instead of tellingly you how stupid your idea is.

Because how do you identify the shit parents who aren't brushing their kids teeth? Really, how? What's your proposal? Kids on free school meals? Kids involved with social services?

It's impossible to say.

And you can guarantee if there was a system where schools had to try to do so, you'd have MNetters outraged that their DC was one of the few who was judged to have a shit parent so needed a free toothbrush.

So you'd have to give toothbrushes to every DC or none at all.

GPTec1 · 15/05/2024 13:57

Bushtika · 15/05/2024 11:25

@Leah5678
Yes it is a lot to ask of a teacher. There was a Radio 4 discussion last week about the impossible task of recruiting and retaining teachers. So many end up leaving when they realise they could opt for a cosy WFH job where they could go to the loo whenever they want.
I wouldn't want to start insisting that teachers just squeeze another responsibility into their working day. It is absolutely not fair and counter productive.
It sounds so othering, somebody else, government, nhs, social services have to provide out of non existent budgets, random things for feckless people.

So adding into a basic biology lesson about oral hygiene, why we have teeth, their importance and how to protect them is somehow beyond a teachers ability?

As @EasternStandard has already pointed out, its the curriculum..... plus its working, the UKs children have, in comparison to Europe, quite good dental outcomes for children but not all.

Lets build on that, help the tiny minority who have poor parents and save the NHS a lot more than the cost of a toothbrush by helping to make all children's teeth even better?

But your attitude is why this country wastes so much money - short term savings = long term costs or as my Gran would have said "Penny wise, pound foolish"

Teachers leave the profession for a variety of reasons, under pay and extremely long out of school hours being the two main ones.

EasternStandard · 15/05/2024 13:47

Leah5678 · 15/05/2024 13:44

It's like people think "fuck them kids born to a heroin addict they should suffer for their parents sins"
Some people have a mean streak and it shows
It doesn't take long to explain how to brush teeth to a kid and give the ones with shit parents (less than one percent of kids) a toothbrush wouldn't cost much money

I‘m not totally against, as I said we had it handed out anyway

It’s a pity if even with free info and toothbrush a 4 year old will be let down with neglect

It’s good oral health is in the curriculum

shearwater2 · 15/05/2024 13:45

If only the state did so much. The amount of support most parents get from the public sector is laughable, particularly for any SEN, and it has to be fought for, tooth and nail, every step of the way, even when needs are urgent and severe and/or it is the school's or local authority's duty to provide it.

Leah5678 · 15/05/2024 13:44

It's like people think "fuck them kids born to a heroin addict they should suffer for their parents sins"
Some people have a mean streak and it shows
It doesn't take long to explain how to brush teeth to a kid and give the ones with shit parents (less than one percent of kids) a toothbrush wouldn't cost much money

Leah5678 · 15/05/2024 13:39

EasternStandard · 15/05/2024 13:33

It was a couple of years ago so maybe age 4

Children need help way before age 7 if parents are neglecting basic care

Sadly handing it out at that time might not change the behaviour of adults still

Age 7 being just an example but baby teeth start falling out at that age and the permanent ones come in so it's very important they're kept clean. I'm not expecting the neglectful parents to change because their child was given a toothbrush but as the child is becoming more independent they might take matters into their own hands especially if they had toothbrushing lessons at school.

EasternStandard · 15/05/2024 13:36

If it’s curriculum it’s in there now 2019

‘new guidance will require that both primary and secondary school pupils are taught about dental health, including the benefits of good oral hygiene, dental flossing and regular dental check-ups, the characteristics of a poor diet, and the risks associated with unhealthy eating, including tooth decay.’

EasternStandard · 15/05/2024 13:33

Leah5678 · 15/05/2024 13:30

It might motivate a 7 year old kid to brush their own teeth so their teeth don't rot and they won't be in pain and can concentrate at school? Not every kid with shit parents will be motivated by a toothbrushing lesson but some will. And every kid saved from tooth pain is a win imo. Idk why people on here begrudge twenty minutes a year dedicated to a brushing lesson. That still leaves hours for maths English art etc. 🤔I'm being serious I worked in a school and saw "precious time" being wasted on things far more trivial so I don't understand why so many people on here disagree

It was a couple of years ago so maybe age 4

Children need help way before age 7 if parents are neglecting basic care

Sadly handing it out at that time might not change the behaviour of adults still

Desecratedcoconut · 15/05/2024 13:31

The disclosing tablets? It happened once during my time at school but I missed it because I was off sick that day. I was disproportionately disappointed.

Leah5678 · 15/05/2024 13:30

EasternStandard · 15/05/2024 13:24

Even with free toothbrush and leaflet on what to do I’m not sure it would motivate the right adults

There are some things out there as our primary did get both for some reason in London a few years ago

It might motivate a 7 year old kid to brush their own teeth so their teeth don't rot and they won't be in pain and can concentrate at school? Not every kid with shit parents will be motivated by a toothbrushing lesson but some will. And every kid saved from tooth pain is a win imo. Idk why people on here begrudge twenty minutes a year dedicated to a brushing lesson. That still leaves hours for maths English art etc. 🤔I'm being serious I worked in a school and saw "precious time" being wasted on things far more trivial so I don't understand why so many people on here disagree

JenniferBooth · 15/05/2024 13:27

Does anyone else remember being given those tablets at school to chew and they turned your teeth dark pink if there was plaque present

EasternStandard · 15/05/2024 13:24

Even with free toothbrush and leaflet on what to do I’m not sure it would motivate the right adults

There are some things out there as our primary did get both for some reason in London a few years ago

Leah5678 · 15/05/2024 13:21

BePinkReader · 15/05/2024 11:35

Teachers have enough to do. And it wouldn't stop at teeth brushing lessons because if you go down that road, then how to wipe your bum properly lesson's, how to wash yourself properly lessons, how to dress yourself lessons, how to turn the page in a book lessons (yes, really. Early years teachers are experiencing DC who can use a smartphone, tablet etc but have never seen a book and think you tap or swipe to open). How to use a knife and fork lessons and on and on.

There are over 10 million DC enrolled in UK schools. That £1 for 3 toothbrushes will add up very quickly 🙄

Reading comprehension not your strong point? I didn't say they should give toothbrushes to every single kid just the ones who have shit parents who refuse to buy their kid a toothbrush, that's a very small minority of the populace btw. It would take like what twenty minutes? every year to give a quick toothbrushing lesson.
If teachers have time to teach kids there's 72 genders theyve got time for toothbrushing lessons.

On the other hand what the hell is school for why don't those lazy parents just teach their own kids maths and literacy. Teachers have enough to do.

BePinkReader · 15/05/2024 11:35

Leah5678 · 15/05/2024 09:50

I agree parents who don't get their kids to brush their teeth are neglectful a holes but it's not the kids fault and would it really be so hard for teachers to give the occasional tooth brushing lesson maybe give some toothbrushes to the kids who parents can't afford/would rather spend the money on heroin. I mean come on you can get a whole pack of toothbrushes for a £1.

Save some poor kid from having rotten painful teeth. I mean come on there's already lessons on "LGBT" and "white privilege" don't tell me the occasional tooth brushing lesson is a waste of time

Teachers have enough to do. And it wouldn't stop at teeth brushing lessons because if you go down that road, then how to wipe your bum properly lesson's, how to wash yourself properly lessons, how to dress yourself lessons, how to turn the page in a book lessons (yes, really. Early years teachers are experiencing DC who can use a smartphone, tablet etc but have never seen a book and think you tap or swipe to open). How to use a knife and fork lessons and on and on.

There are over 10 million DC enrolled in UK schools. That £1 for 3 toothbrushes will add up very quickly 🙄

Bushtika · 15/05/2024 11:29

However @Leah5678
Do buy a load of toothbrushes yourself, train as an oral specialist, pay for yourself to be DBS cleared and volunteer at your local primary school.

Bushtika · 15/05/2024 11:25

@Leah5678
Yes it is a lot to ask of a teacher. There was a Radio 4 discussion last week about the impossible task of recruiting and retaining teachers. So many end up leaving when they realise they could opt for a cosy WFH job where they could go to the loo whenever they want.
I wouldn't want to start insisting that teachers just squeeze another responsibility into their working day. It is absolutely not fair and counter productive.
It sounds so othering, somebody else, government, nhs, social services have to provide out of non existent budgets, random things for feckless people.

Leah5678 · 15/05/2024 09:50

Giraffesandbottoms · 14/05/2024 20:11

Oh come on - I would disagree with that absolutely. It’s basically medical yes, which is why medical insurance covers most dental procedures.

and even if not, expecting teachers to pick up the slack on basic shit like that is embarrassing.

I agree parents who don't get their kids to brush their teeth are neglectful a holes but it's not the kids fault and would it really be so hard for teachers to give the occasional tooth brushing lesson maybe give some toothbrushes to the kids who parents can't afford/would rather spend the money on heroin. I mean come on you can get a whole pack of toothbrushes for a £1.

Save some poor kid from having rotten painful teeth. I mean come on there's already lessons on "LGBT" and "white privilege" don't tell me the occasional tooth brushing lesson is a waste of time

GPTec1 · 15/05/2024 08:35

they pay significantly more tax already. That’s fine. They shouldn’t pay more than they do, because they will leave and then people will really be fucked

Sunak pays a total of 22% on his PAYE PM salary and his USA investment earnings.

Anyone paying CGT on investment income is NOT paying significantly more tax and our CGT rates are super low.

Where is the CEO of Tesco going to go? that almost 5m of shares will only attract CGT on the gain & no tax so long as he keeps them for 5 years... not bad is it?

Tesco's annual report showed chief executive Ken Murphy was paid £9.93m in the year to February 24 2024, up from £4.44m in 2022/23. The package was made up of fixed pay of £1.64m, an annual bonus of £3.38m and a Performance Share Plan (PSP) payout of £4.91m

GPTec1 · 15/05/2024 08:30

Giraffesandbottoms · 14/05/2024 20:11

Oh come on - I would disagree with that absolutely. It’s basically medical yes, which is why medical insurance covers most dental procedures.

and even if not, expecting teachers to pick up the slack on basic shit like that is embarrassing.

Med insurance never covers dental, its always an add on, a very expensive add on.

You don't seem have any clue as to the alternative to schools adding in dental care lessons do you?

mathanxiety · 15/05/2024 01:48

FaeryRing · 14/05/2024 12:44

I’m not sure if it’s ’having kids to get a house and benefits’ or ‘knowing if they have kids they won’t have to worry about a house and benefits’. It may not be the actual aim but they know they won’t really have to take responsibility for the kids they produce, so the decision to have a baby is taken much much more lightly than it used to be

This is a tired and frankly offensive trope, the feckless, wanton, cunning woman.

It's the disgusting 'welfare queen' language of Ronald Reagan.

ShyPoet · 15/05/2024 00:13

I feel aggrieved when I know of HR managers in Conservative run councils receiving over100k ten years ago! Who knows what that amount is now.
Conservative councils are lining their own pockets and claiming they cannot afford basic provision. Corruption and nepotism is a huge problem within Conservative LA and government.

SoloCat · 14/05/2024 23:20

MillshakePickle · 11/05/2024 13:49

The state is should do more, but in order to do so taxes need to be raised accordingly. Too many paid for by government/Council resources have been cut often affecting the people who need them most.

It's simple. Raise taxes across the board and allocate the money according to the services in need. So in about 292 years once tory austerity has been repaired, provision can be made to expand and enhance services.

In all seriousness, a step towards enhancing state run services would be to ensure that staffing levels are increased and maintained, wages for public sector workers increased, and an incentive for joining these careers. Make being teachers, police officers, fire fighters, waste disposal technicians, nurses, doctors etc attractive professions to be apart of again.

This is partially why the tories are pushing more people back to work. They need money through taxation, and the more people who are working and working to earn just above the taxable amount will mean more money to prop up the system. Their approach is not nearly good enough and misguided in terms of their execution of this goal.

As a country we are broke ass poor. Britain has ranked 37th out of 39 European countries in regards to child poverty. This is unacceptable.

For those who are complaining and holding their hands out for more, put your money where your mouth is and pay taxes appropriately and proportionally. Either through funds or giving back in some form to the community in which you're taking resources out of it. I do appreciate and understand that some may be dealing with long term illness and disability, I am talking about those who refuse to vote, spoil votes, work just enough to avoid paying taxes, those who use tax loopholes to pay less tax, corporations etc.

I feel aggrieved when I know of HR managers in Labour run councils receiving over100k ten years ago! Who knows what that amount is now.
Councils are lining their own pockets and claiming they cannot afford basic provision. Corruption and nepotism is a huge problem within LA and government.

I wish I could believe in any official office to do the right thing needed to sort the country out…increasing taxation will just get lost in a black hole. This country is a mess and nobody is willing to make difficult decisions. Career politics in full play.

I do not want the state to take on more things they can then mismanage. I’d prefer less state interference.

ShyPoet · 14/05/2024 20:55

In terms of single mothers, there was a lot of stigma and not much community help. But there were benefits.