To think the level of state involvement many posters expect is bonkers?

Haven't RTFT yet but I want to make a point about toothbrushing in schools.

I work in a shool and I would actually be totally on board with this, as ridiculous as it would seem.

Our school is in a high deprivation area with astronomical levels of poverty.

It's not unusual for maybe 10-12 children in a class of five year olds to have Black and rotten teeth, holes in their teeth, missing teeth from rotting etc. It's so horrible to see. At that age their teeth should be pearly white still.

They don't brush at home and have awful diets. The amount of children that we hear and see upset because of toothache is really horrible.

It shouldn't be our responsibility as a school but when I see these poor kids and the state of their teeth, I'd be quite happy to have supervised tooth brushing sessions at school.

Culturally you can see differences though. In terms of responsibility and how impacts societies

@Giraffesandbottoms Lets imagine politicians, celebrities and media hammer home the message that people should take responsibility for their own lives. Then what do you think will happen? Do you seriously think everyone will become slim, do loads of exercise, eat well, not drink too much and give up smoking and vaping? And that all parents will become brilliant parents who raise healthy and productive children?
Is that how you think life works?

Based on their (brand new to the site) opening post, yes. They let the mask slip further in.

No - OP is suggesting people take some bloody responsibility for their own actions in life. That’s the bottom line and I’m not sure how people can disagree with it (although obviously many do because of how society is now).

Very heartening how many have silently agreed though via the vote.

think the point being made is that everybody should step up and take responsibility.
If you have repeatedly done something which is damaging your health, for example smoking, is it seriously acceptable to keep doing that and expect to keep getting quite frankly pointless treatment for free?

How do you decide who's 'deserving' of treatment?

I also believe (perhaps I'm wrong if someone knows the figures?) that smoking saves the state money? They're heavily taxed but also tend to die younger (which should please the PP who're complaining about state pension costs).

Then there's the question of who's next after smokers? People injured when participating in a sport? Healthy to exercise but taking your argument of personal responsibility, perhaps everyone should stick to walking as their only form of exercise.

Fell off your bike after taking up cycling because of schemes aimed at increasing cycling? 'Personal responsibility' and 'should've stuck to walking or other form of transport'.

And no doubt anyone who's even a little bit overweight will be denied help in some PPs Personal Responsibility NHS. Nevermind that poor mental or physical health (including undiagnosed conditions) can cause weight gain. Poverty too. Also stress (which often goes hand in hand with poverty).

The OP bemoaned spending money on maternity wards, childrens hospitals and schools. I think you need to keep looking.

I agree that businesses do not want to employ disabled people.
There has been a massive increase in support to disabled people to enable them to participate in education. I know it is not enough, but there is a massive increase, especially in further education. So people come out with qualifications they could not have hoped to gain in the past. But employers have I think become less willing to employ disabled people than in the past. Most people are working harder than ever with high boss expectations, and employers are not willing to make adjustments unless they are basic e.g. different chair.

There's also the very obvious cost of the social housing shortage. Which massively increases the cost of benefits because private rent is much higher than social housing. It's one of the reasons why so many working people still need benefits. Investing in more social homes would significantly reduce the benefits bill.

With Covid. I don't know what should've been done but it's a good example of the lack of will by employers to employ disabled or ill people. I know of a nurse who got Long Covid early on. She's been forced out of her job and stuck on benefits because management refused to make disability adjustments and reduced hours.

The cries to get disabled people back to work seem centred on disabled people, when often it's businesses and employers that need looking at. If you want disabled people in work, we need to encourage and support companies in employing disabled people and providing adjustments and flexible working. (Some people will still be to unwell to work and need support, and they deserve that support and compassion for their circumstances. Nobody would choose to be disabled and unable to work).

This issue (people unable to work) brings me back to the need to invest in public services. People are ending up too unwell to work and on benefits because of poor or no or delayed support from underfunded NHS, mental health services, and social care.

I completely agree with you but I would also remind you that most of the other countries had even more strict lockdowns than us.

as I said it was obvious after the first lockdown (and it’s pretty obvious since, seeing how they flaunted the rules) that reactions were OTT to this. But as a PP said - everyone was screamed at for killing the elderly and being called selfish and I can understand why the govt basically went along with it out of fear of the people. I don’t think any other govt would have done anything differently.

@MistressoftheDarkSide post on the last page explains it well. Better than I can but I'll try. Although I suggest you read her post which answers your question on how investing in good public services pays off and reduces the amount of dependancy. Other PP have also given good explanations but I can't remember who right now and don't have the time to re-read the whole thread).

Here's an example. Someone I know. Used to work but developed health issues. Thanks to long NHS wait lists and delays, by the time she was diagnosed things had got much worse. If she'd been able to access good and early help she'd still be able to work.

Another example. Woman flees DV. There's a shortage of refuge spaces due to funding cuts but even if she finds a place often she'll then be 'moved on' to temporary accommodation. Which is often as Mistress says sub standard to say the least. It's definitely not somewhere for vulnerable DV victims (or their DC) to recover from trauma.

Also even if they get decent housing quickly people don't just recover overnight from very traumatic events. Not without time and or effective support. Support which is often lacking due to funding cuts.

The CMS system is a mess too, and that isn't only relevant to DV. So primary carer parents are left dependant on the state instead of the other parent paying for their kids. From @mathanxiety posts it sounds like we could learn something from the US when it comes to better enforcing child support.

Some DV victims will be physically damaged as well as emotionally. Can't remember if it's this thread or another one but a poster was left disabled and unable to work after a very violent assault by her ex.

If public services were better funded (and preferably not privatised) the women and children affected by DV in situations I described above would get timely and effective support, and many would be able to get off benefits.

(Regarding DV, I do wonder how many of the 'cut them all off benefits cuz personal responsibility' PP jump on posters in abusive relationships insisting the person immediately LTB and dismiss the poster's financial or other practical concerns with 'I'd rather live in a bin on benefits if it were me' posts?)

Mn was a state during covid. Any mention of harms from lockdowns social or economic sent posters on attack.

There’s still a bit of that kind of posting around

People were clamouring due to the misrepresentation of data given the weight of Van Tam and Whitty. The numbers did not speak for what was being presented and those who ventured dissent were silenced. I am machiavellian enough to believe it was whipped up by statist and left wing academics and civil servants who wielded far too much power.

Those who were dying were the vulnerable who were likely to die before the summer or year was out. The percentage of people dying was tiny compares to the number of covid cases. So many times I put the actual stats with calculations on Mumsnet and every time I was shouted, nay screamed down by the shopping washers.

Fortunately, where we live nobody clapped and there were plenty of eye rolls. The biggest marker fkr me was our local, vast Sainsburys. The staff were interfacing daily with hundreds of people and weren't keeling over. It must have been replicated all over the country.

I had Covid. I was tired, achy and coughed for three days. It was nothing like influenza.

"Every child has education opportunities don’t they?"

Some children don't even have a school place.

I'm just telling you my experience, I got a small grant plus student loan which I worked all holidays to pay off -at that time it was mid way to what it is now. Think a 17 year old would get some sort of payment from the state if their parents won't support them or they don't have parents. Most students now will never pay off their loans and will be partly written off so not true to say they don't get any state support. And reason for student loans is far too many are going to uni so state couldn't afford to pay otherwise. The fact that many posters are so aghast at the suggestion that claimants should have to work for the state in return for benefits proves we live in an entitled society imo.

This is maybe the most sensible thread I’ve ever seen on MN

People have totally rewritten Covid history. You couldn’t take your mask off for fear of being actually shamed and verbally attacked, and now everyone is complaining about how it was handled. People are their own worst enemies! The furlough mentality has stayed pretty strong even now - everyone wants to wfh and have flexi hours/do whatever the fuck they like and just expect employers to make it work because it’s convenient for them 🤷🏻‍♀️

Yep. There were some saying too much but sadly they got drowned out by public demand

You quoted my post. I agree there are many difficulties in the social system and neglect is always underpinned by another factor eg deprivation (whole other level of nappies at school) or stressors MH issues in parents.

Just to be very clear - I in no way think having a Range Rover or more money makes you a better parent.

I think this issue is across all classes - at different levels. It’s more obvious when it’s food/clothing but it’s the same issue when it’s less obvious in families with more money: everyone across the board is just expecting teachers and everyone else to handle their parenting

What post of mine are you referencing? I can well believe what you see in an affluent area! I think there is negligence across the board. Social services don’t question the middle classes and affluent for fear of legal repercussions and a belief if someone is well spoken they will be fine parents (incorrect ), just as they don’t question those who are willingly unemployed, for fear of violence etc. system is fucked. What’s worrying is well is that due to colossal underfunding, things which seem “minor” but IMO are negligent eg the teeth brushing, aren’t important enough to care about.

my experience is just anecdotal - combination of having a large amount of friends who are teachers (from different types of schools), and from having children at school/observations.

But to be fair to Rishi, people were clamouring for furlough and lockdowns. It was bedlam - labour wanted more lockdowns and furlough. I don’t think it’s fair to just blame the govt, although I do think they knew by the second lockdown it was not necessary but they cared more about being popular and following the will of the people.

@Giraffesandbottoms My experience working in a state school in a very affluent area. You'd probably be very shocked at some of the goings on behind closed doors that NHS staff, Education and Social Work dept staff have to discuss. Having a lot of money & a Ranger over doesn't always mean being a safe or good parent. Many of the children I've seen with foetal alcohol disorder are in middle class homes or private education establishments. It's very misunderstood. Where are you getting your info from? Interested to know if it your thoughts or actual experience.

I agree with you and thought we’d see the kick back at the time, people were keen though

I don’t think it was the funding that was the issue in that once the approach was taken it had to be backed

It wasn’t scrutinised enough all round though for economic and other harms