To think the level of state involvement many posters expect is bonkers?

I fully agree. State support/interference will have to reduce as it's just unaffordable at current levels. You can't keep increasing taxes on a small proportion of the population as eventually you reach the tipping point.

If we want to maintain and grow the state support/interference, we need to be looking at spreading the tax burden which would mean something like increasing VAT and extending the scope of VAT, and also imposing NIC (or equivalent) on ALL income sources, including pensions.

I'm no expert on Singapore but one thing I do know is that they have much, much higher availability of the equivalent of council/social housing than we do. It may not be luxurious but it is a priority for the state.

They also have a compulsory saving scheme so that a percentage of your salary goes into a mandatory account that you can only spend on healthcare (and maybe some other welfare state things)?

They're definitely not an example of an economy/society that leaves it up to the population to sort out housing and healthcare or to decide on appropriate levels/quality of it.

I’m not ‘ranting’ about anything.

I posted one line on cultural differences which you leapt on to Us. Although you seem to now acknowledge Japan is culturally and socially different with different outcomes. Which is what I posted.

As for what can be done in the U.K. to lower obesity idk, who has high rates and got them down? Once high it seems hard.

I’d say it does include the will to change in whatever it is and that is hard to foster

I actually think we are at the limit if what the state will provide. The govt has got us in massive debt and spend alot more than they get in despite record taxes. And part of spending is massive interest payments on the debt. I think people agreed going to have to become much more self reliant in the coming decades including things like making the state pension means tested. We are in for a rocky road!

As an eyrs teacher of more than 15 years, the SEN childen come in either trained, or the parents are supportive and the children train relatively quickly (although they still need taking). The ones not trained, with lazy parents trying to keep nappies on them, are not the SEN children. And before anyone comes at me with 'you don't know, hidden SEN, etc' I do know. I've been doing this long enough to know when SEN is an issue and when it's not.
Majority are lazy parents who can't be bothered to put up with a few accidents and expect nursery/school to do it for them.

@EasternStandard But we live in a certain culture. We can not suddenly impose on Britain say Japan's culture.
So how do you think we should change things so say obesity is less common?
That is the point I am trying to make. If you just want to rant about how fat, unhealthy and terrible parents lots of people are - go ahead.
I am not interested. I am interested in what can be done to improve people's lives, parenting and public health.

I've had a quick skim back over some of pages I've missed here.

People seem to have contradictory expectations. They complain about costs to the state and yesterday were talking about the need for family to 'step up' and care for older relatives. Then they say people should all move away for work or housing.

How do people care for family, as some PP have said they should do, if they've had to move away for work or housing?

People are told to move away to big cities for work, but at the same time there's countless threads on MN where people unable to afford to live in those cities (often despite being in work) are told to move somewhere cheaper...

Cities have larger populations, so massive housing demand. They tend to be the most expensive places for housing (for example, London, Manchester, and Birmingham have the highest homeless rates in the UK).

People can't win!

It's ridiculous. What's needed is better work opportunities, and separately more social housing, everywhere. Also better public transport in rural areas.

(Agree with your posts @ShyPoet @L4815162342 and @qwertyqwertyqwertyqwerty )

Shouting - take personal responsibility can make is feel morally superior but changes nothing.
Take the example of toothbrushing for children. The state is not involved in this at all. It literally is parents responsibility. The only involvement the state has in tooth brushing for children is that those who look after children and parents may say to the parent that children should brush their teeth e.g. GP, dentist, HV, teachers. But state involvement in most areas is extremely minimal. And look at where that has got us? Increasing dental decay amongst young children's teeth.

The state used to be more involved. Sure Start would run initiatives to promote toothbrushing amongst young children. And NHS dentists were easy to get and parents would be strongly encouraged to take their children for regular check ups.

Minimal state intervention does not work. You do have to be careful with state intervention not to disempower people so they take less responsibility than they currently do. But that is about designing decent evidence based public health programmes.

There’s a whole range of cultures out there. They’re not all exactly the same as the UK

When I look at obesity threads on here the lacking quality does seem to be responsibility for own choices. I think we lag on that compared to some countries with better health and lower obesity.

I also think we might be particularly poor when it comes to basic stuff like tooth brushing going by below posts. Sadly

And parenting in those cases is not meeting basic requirement for care and responsibility

@EasternStandard I have repeatedly said I quoted two examples, one in the US.
I have also repeatedly asked for examples of where advocating people take personal responsibility has made any difference to the publics health and/or parenting.
You have repeatedly not provided any. So I assume you do not have any.

I agree. I know politicians do not think through how this would work practically, and it does need to be thought through. But public health measures save money. They stop people turning up at A and E or at emergency dentists with abscesses and rotten teeth needing urgent treatment. They improve physical health - tooth decay is linked to poorer cardiac health.
Good public health measures save money. Having a healthy population who can study and work and parent well is much better for the individuals and the economy.

As I said you chose the US not me.

I was thinking of other cultural and social differences and better health / lower obesity rates

There are plenty of places where people area expected to take responsibility (Japan, Singapore) combined with being very tough on crime but culturally very different more like Britain in the 50s where people were hardworking and took responsibility.

It’s this kind of post the pp was referring to

I don’t think you know what people have read

I don't think there'll be any reading of evidence-based research going on.

People posting don't even understand in what ways the welfare state has changed, let alone why.

But they had 2 years work experience rather than sweet FA Sat on the dole

Tooth brushing has been proposed because it would save money.

Public health measures save money for the taxpayer.

This is basic stuff.

'That simple really'

The extent to which you display hatred towards fellow British citizens is completely unacceptable @FaeryRing

It is disconcerting to see such awful thought processes aired without any reflection or critical thinking.

I see what you mean. Yes, they do say this, happy to be corrected. I suppose what I meant to say was that politicians are quick to come up with a 'solution' without necessarily acknowledging the cost e.g. the proposal for primary school teachers to supervise toothbrushing.

@EasternStandard You seem to be advocating that if we told people to take personal responsibility health and parenting would improve.
The US was one of two examples I gave. They advocate personal responsibility around health, and it does not work.
So I was asking you where advocates personal responsibility that has led to an improvement in health or parenting.

What do you think I am advocating from that short post on cultural differences?

You seem to have leapt forward to US for some reason

@EasternStandard Where can you see what you advocate making any difference?

Where did I say I was advocating the US model?

I said culturally you can see a difference

You chose the US

If you really believe it makes any difference I think you ae ignoring the international evidence and research all around you.
On a very basic level, if parents do not make their children brush their teeth, no one else does. Parents do have the responsibility. And look at where that has led to?
In the US people pay for their health costs, on top of insurance there are always co-pays. People are told by politicians to take responsibility for their health. And yet in the US many people eat a dreadful diet and are very overweight.

What you are advocating simply does not work. All it does is make those advocating personal responsibility feel morally superior. But it changes nothing. Read some evidence based research into public health and parenting to understand what does work. In summary it is about supporting people to make healthy choices through the overall environment, and early years help.

Sweden. I do agree however. We had to be seen to be in step. The lockdowns went on for too long however and the presentation of the data should have been tempered.