Do you “let” your kids speak to you like shit

We have a 12 year old who has ADHD and is similar.
We do a mixture of:
ignore entirely, if he just shouts something rude randomly.
suggest we can't understand him, if he wants something "Give me a drink!" "sorry?" "Can I have a drink please?".
tell him he doesn't get to say that e.g. "you can't be in here, you're too annoying" "sorry it's my house, you can't say that". We try not to repeat the last one so much.

There is no point, with many children with ADHD, in calling them out every time as the act of exciting you into reaction is very stimulating for them, so they will keep doing it.

This is an ADHD thing, apparently, if you haven't yet done so you should definitely listen to the ADHD Guys podcast, they go into this and it can be a thing for ADHD adults e.g. voice too loud, not quite getting the tone right for the conversation.

No.

It's educated parenting from someone raising a child with ADHD and developmental trauma. I also have ADHD.

I have worked with teams of professionals. I'm not inventing parenting strategies.

Authoritarian parenting for ND kids is not going to work. It will just create a negative environment for everyone.

I call mine out every time they do it. I tell them what the expectations are. I don't appreciate being spoken to like that/please don't talk to me like that/don't you ever talk to me like that/this is completely unacceptable/ I heard that, mums hear everything, depending on what they have said. Even for teen it's consequences. Sometimes they can't be reasoned with, have got too worked up and have to calm down, I will go back to them and we have a chat about it and a hug after a genuine sorry is offered up. I'm always firm and nothing is ignored. DH was told by the DCs that mum is the boss and he is second in command. He can be a little bit soft with them, inconsistent with the firmness. I find with kids if you give an inch....

Op one thing that jumps out at me - is there any truth in your other son winding up your son with adhd? Because mine can be very, very sneaky when winding each other up and it's a huge trigger for them - if i find one of mine has deliberately wound the other up, they get sanctioned or asked to apologise too.

Has your son got somewhere he can go that his brother can't? Such as his bedroom? So if he needs space from his brother he can go there and be guaranteed his brother won't be allowed to follow?

With my adhd, when I'm wound up i can be outwardly ok, I'm coping, then suddenly I'm not coping and i get a searing hot spike of absolute rage, and if I'm not very very careful I'll say or do something i will regret. I'll be very sorry later, but by then it's too late - when that rage hits its pretty much impossible not to react, especially if you're 8 years old with adhd and have not yet learned, or don't have the ability to control yourself.

Then the anger goes away like the tide going out, and you are stranded there having to face up to what you did or said while in meltdown which can cause really strong feelings of shame and embarrassment. I used to internalise all this shame which led to zero self esteem. Those feelings can also make it very hard to come down from the meltdown because you genuinely don't know how to row back and you don't know if the person you were angry at will accept your apology. So even if I'm still angry with the dc, if they come to me to apologise, i always accept it and we hug it out. I may not be ready to talk about it yet, but I'll never turn them away if they're apologising or need my help to calm down. I'm on their side.

I won't usually punish what was said or done in meltdown because by that point, they're genuinely not in control of themselves. We will have a talk about it later when they're calm and I'll ask them to apologise. My focus is usually on trying to identify the trigger and asking them what else they could do in that moment - such as walking away, or asking for help. They're getting so much better. I also make a point of praising when i notice that they have dealt with something like that well and they've avoided a meltdown.

Part of what @Adhdmumofadhdtwins did there was to express the children’s emotions appropriately for them.

When children explode with ‘Fine, Stupid!’, they are expressing complicated emotions in a simplistic way.

It’s shorthand for something along the lines of ‘I really don’t want to, I’ve had a shit day, I want to have icecream hot chocolate and marshmallows all in the same bowl without the icecream melting and a hug without anyone touching me and I really wish I hadnt got out of bed this morning but I’m going to do what you said anyway, because your my mum and I have to and I know you mean well and aren’t doing it to annoy me but I’m still annoyed!’

In an office that would translate as ‘Honestly, sometimes I don’t think I’m paid enough for this! Roll on next week!’.

When your DC huffs and adds a few rude words, tell them you know they are frustrated, and they’ll feel better after a good night’s sleep, and it would be great if they could say the rude bit where you don’t have to hear it so your feelings aren’t hurt.

We also do a useful ‘don’t say that one in front of your grandma or a teacher’ as he didn’t pick up easily on what was and wasn’t acceptable.

Kids are allowed emotions too. When mine called me an ugly old troll, he was saying how very upset he was at not being allowed to do whatever it was. ‘Worse than the Dursleys’ was a low point.

He’s lovely now. Hasn’t called anyone an ugly old troll since he was about 8.

I struggle to hold the line on this. At 8, what worked really well was a mild, consistent screen fine - he’d have to wait 5 minutes longer for screen time to start (easy for me to implement)
I’d start by challenging the tone/language or model the appropriate words/or say “shall we begin again?” And if he didn’t back down I’d say “do you want to lose 5 minutes screen time?”
And only if he dug in would he actually get that. And if he kept going I’d say “ do you want to make that ten?”

So he had plenty of off ramps and the punishment didn’t escalate beyond what I could manage. I also allowed him to earn the time back by doing chores when he cooled down.

I only once got to 15 minutes and then uncovered a much bigger issue underlying the strop.

He’s 15 now and it’s much harder with hormones raging, exam stress, etc. Sometimes it’s more important to get to the crux of the issue than worry about the words; sometimes I’ll trigger a meltdown or shutdown but it’s also a significant part of my job to raise him not to be abusive or rude. It’s very tricky to navigate.

Try to position yourself along side him, rather than opposite him. You're doing this together for the long haul, and he's a person with his own path, not a project for you to finish and get right.

I absolutely love this.

I've had to forget everything i thought i knew about parenting and relearn from a ND perspective. When i learnt to position myself alongside them, i empathise with them and let them know i struggle with things like that too, and this is how i deal with it - it's changed everything. I can talk about things i have found hard, what i struggled with at school, and i can help them and understand them in a way that nobody was ever able to do for me. I can put words to their emotions which helps them to understand what's going on and why they feel the way they do.

I think it clicked when i took them shoe shopping, on a busy Sunday because i hadn't noticed they really, really needed new school shoes (thanks adhd!). We all hate shoe shopping, they were getting very antsy and i was getting wound up. and it's when i said "look, i hate shoe shopping as much as you do, why don't we all agree to just get this over and done with as quickly as we can, so we can go home?" And we did. We all looked at each other, me and these two little 6 year olds at the time, and we all seemed to recognise in the same second that we all find it hard but we are actually in it together and I'm on their side. Up till then i think they were mainly struggling that they thought i was making them do something they really, really didn't want to do, they were stressed and overwhelmed. We got ice cream on the way home to reward ourselves. Since then it's our pact - get shoe shopping done and get out of there!

It's one of my favourite memories because it was when something snapped into place that changed my perspective on the situation, and i believe it changed their perspective too. We have so many bad days. But then we have good ones too. I like that, walk alongside them.

My now adult son has ADHD and mild asd and he would have never in a million years spoken to us rudely. We didn't tolerate it. ADHD and asd are not "get out of acting like a decent human being" cards.

No not medicated. We wanted to try some of the ADHD coaching techniques first and also because he is (currently) doing OK in school. He is quite smart, so he's managed to keep up with learning at school despite not being able to focus 100% - however, I'm sure he could do much better if the ADHD wasn't at play. School are happy with him so far and no worries, but his progress is beginning to level out a bit (whereas he was making a lot of progress with learning in prior academic years).

I’m AuDHD (late diagnosed) and I suspect DD is too. We had similar issues, probably worst about aged 6. The attitude! Refusal to do even the basic tasks..like I recall one huge battle because she couldn’t/wouldn’t change her socks and they stank. I was honestly in tears with it. Asked ND friends who are parents, was recommended ‘1, 2, 3 magic’ and ‘The Explosive Child’. Both helped immensely. What I liked about the explosive child is that it’s not aimed at any specific condition but you sit down and it gives you the tools to work out what the key issues are, how to facilitate the change you need to see. Key take away is ‘all children want to do well if they possibly can’. so if your DS isn’t, why not? Also is there maybe demand avoidance? If he refuses to do things from a direct demand like ‘Put your shoes on’ it might be that. I’ve found DD is better when I make it sound like a choice, phrasing like ‘It would be great if you could get your shoes on now’. ‘Just a gentle reminder it’s time for x/x is outstanding’.
Music practice has been a massive sticking point and she’s done a lot more since I put it like that.

Key thing? Be positive. I love bombed my child! (In a good way). Every tiny thing even if it was just ‘Hey you put your shoes on!’. ‘Well done for brushing your teeth. Excellent!’ Every tiny little thing I praised until things started to turn around. Key for us though was improving her sleep. It was a LOT of work but once we cracked it, she was happpier and the other things like getting dressed, brushing teeth, were easier.
5 years on things are much better. Hormones are kicking in! But a couple of weeks ago I saw a massive attitude over something I had no control over so I simply said ‘You’re being very rude to me. I’m going to let you calm down’ and gave her space. I’m around but not in her face. She came and apologised spontaneously after an hour. Was I raging inside? Perhaps! But me rising to meet it doesn’t help. I’m divorced from her Dad. Unfortunately he thinks the best thing to do is come down on her really hard (he thinks I’m soft). He forces an apology, backs her into a corner, seems surprised that she doesn’t want to spend much time at his house! I’ve found a generally positive and gentle approach with a firm ‘Er that’s rude, I’ll wait til you’re calm’ when she plays up best personally. Not saying I get it right all the time! 😄 but it’s definitely better for the changes implemented in 1. 2. 3 magic and Explosive child.

No I don't, but my DS is NT so I appreciate it's probably less challenging for me.

Have you tried when he's not doing great behaviour comments like
'do we think this is a wise choice' ' do you think we should stop' 'have I told you before not to do that'

Also which is controversial. If he says you are being annoying respond with 'well you are annoying' and then say how didn't that make you feel? Because that's how I feel when you say that. Then obviously make it clear that he's not annoying but just to give him the shock factor one time

As others have said let most things go unless he's wrecking the house or a danger to himself or others or of course annoying other children

Also do you have a sensory swing. They are great and rather than banning screen time etc literally tell him to go calm down in the swing and when HE is ready to be kind then HE can decide when to come back out

Daily battles happen over things that I naively think should be easy/simple. Brushing teeth is a big trigger for some reason! Generally being asked to do tasks will often involve a sudden outburst and a rude tone/shouting at me

As per my username i have adhd and probably asd and i hate having to do things like teeth brushing. I do it, obviously, but sometimes I'll need to give myself quite a bit of time to convince myself to do it. I get task paralysis - I'm literally rooted to the spot and it feels like i have to mentally wrench myself to make myself do the thing - like getting out of the bath. I love baths, but hate getting out of the bath and getting dried. Sometimes I'll sit there for 20 minutes getting cold trying to tell myself to get out of the bath. It's quite distressing sometimes because you want to want to do it, you know you have to do it - but you can't. Dh will knock the bathroom door if I've been there ages in case i am stuck in task paralysis mode.

We also struggle to transition between tasks, so even though you know teeth need brushing every day at the same time, your dc may forget or not notice the passing of time then suddenly you're telling him to brush his teeth but he's busy doing something - this could be why he's struggling. I found mine improved when i printed out a daily routine which they had input into, and taught them to tell the time. They have chores, but within reason i let them decide when they do them, or i give them plenty of notice and repeated reminders that the task needs doing .

We use Alexa a lot as well, to set timers to count them down to when things need to happen by. I get my dc to set their own timers to give them responsibility for themselves. If they don't do things in a certain time and they run out of time to do the thing they wanted to do - well that's tough. Natural consequences are good and work a lot better for us than just randomly taking stuff away. Be clear about consequences and stick to them.

We also talk A LOT about the whys - why is important to brush teeth, why its important to go to school, why we need to eat healthy etc. I find if i understand the why, i take things on board a lot better.

Me and my dc hate routine tasks because there's no dopamine in it. Sometimes I'll get my dc toothbrushes ready for them even though they are well and truly capable of doing it, because getting started on a boring task is the hardest bit. Often once i get them started and have removed the mental barrier that's stopping them, they can get on with it.

Both DH and I were brought up my the manners police, and politeness is non negotiable in our household. We literally have zero tolerance for rudeness, and every slip up is called out, and apologies demanded.
We are also screen-free (kids are 9 and 7 so don't need them), but bad behaviour comes with appropriate consequences. Calling someone a moron would definitely result in a few cancelled parties/play dates/privileges.

I'm in the same boat as you OP. DS is almost 8yo and diagnosed ADHD recently - though we've suspected for a few years now. Struggles a lot with emotional regulation, but manages to keep his emotions in check somewhat successfully during the school day (his fidgeting, calling out answers etc... not so much!)

Daily battles happen over things that I naively think should be easy/simple. Brushing teeth is a big trigger for some reason! Generally being asked to do tasks will often involve a sudden outburst and a rude tone/shouting at me.

It's a huge learning curve. I have tried to let more things go recently, mainly because I can't keep up this level of intensity anymore - it's parenting on hard mode! I try not to make too many demands of him, and let him decompress but obviously some tasks are a non-negotiable.

This thread has been really helpful to me - thank you everyone. I don't have many friends with the same experiences of parenting as me, and its a relief to see that DS's behaviour is quite common/typical of ND 7/8yo. If anyone fancies teaming up for an ongoing support/check-in thread for our pre-teen ADHD/ASD kids I'd willing join that in the hope it might save my sanity!

Ultimately you don't want him to grow into a difficult adult

Im there too. If mine are having a bad day, I'll let individual rudeness go during a meltdown and when they are calm we will talk about why it's not appropriate to talk to people like that, and give one sanction for all the instances of rudeness. If they're then rude again after that, they get another sanction. Ok they can't always help it, but my rule is they're allowed to be angry, they're not allowed to be insulting and offensive. It's a long, slow, slow process.

Although I've figured out taking tv time away is sometimes counter productive - sometimes they need it to help them to decompress and calm down.

I'm trying to work out the situation too etc and it tends to go in for a while and then we have to have the conversation again. I think that's the nature of ND parenting, you can't tell them once and think it's enough
Or it's the nature that she can continue to do it without much consequences so why would she stops when she gets to vent out that way.

And do you ever wonder if your adult children ever have problems expressing themselves or being scared of their bosses?

Children are not little robots. We expect them to behave like adults - when as adults we can be rude ourselves. I’m not talking about aggressive destructive behaviour but not allowing your kids to have an opinion or be grumpy or just be an arse in general is suffocating for them. Then we have so many struggling adults because their parents were so intolerant. Because their Victorian parents were exactly the same to them

Daughter and I both have ADHD.

She can be short with me and will say things that are unfiltered.

I don't give consequences, I don't think they work for things like that. I do talk to her calmly and explain that there is no reason for her to speak to me like that, I'm trying my best, I'm trying to work out the situation too etc and it tends to go in for a while and then we have to have the conversation again. I think that's the nature of ND parenting, you can't tell them once and think it's enough.

No, my children were never rude to me. It just wasn't tolerated.

I'm ND, and I know how to behave.

He is polite to other family members and to staff at school it's just me and DH but he is polite to us at times too I have to give him that. He goes to classes a couple of times a week so he has somewhere to channel all his energy. He does get more screen time at the weekend as school isn't on

It's not 'frilly' parenting.

Its called learning to adapt to your ND childs needs and triggers.

Authoritarian parenting rarely works.. i have asd/adhd and a level of demand avoidance myself, so why on earth would i parent in a way that would (And does) trigger me when my 70+yo mother still tries it with me when i do something she disapproves of.

Fuck that for a game of solidiers.

My kids get firm, fair and empathetic parenting that works with them, not against them.