Page 2 | Do you “let” your kids speak to you like shit

Scootsville · 2024-05-08T10:30:00+00:00

DS has ADHD and probably ASD. Yes I’ve looked up PDA parenting strategies etc. He is 8, so wondering how much of this is down to age and how much to being ND. He is the eldest and currently finding his brother SO ANNOYING so it really feels like living with a hormonal teen. The way he speaks to us his parents. He doesn’t swear or call us names (yet) but the tone, the lack of manners, telling us how annoying we are. To his friends’ parents and people in shops/cafes etc he is very polite. He is pulled up every single time he speaks to us rudely or is unkind to his brother, he has screen bans left right and centre. I try and praise every little thing he does that isn’t a battle and offer to read or play a board game with him, but our relationship at the moment is rubbish with him being told off and given consequences 1000 a day. And I seriously worry about him developing a conduct disorder because of it, I know ND children are typically corrected much more than their peers as it is. But I don’t think the answer is to let him speak to us like shit?

MagicTape · 09/05/2024 14:43

MoMandaS · 09/05/2024 14:19

I suppose this is where a visual timer could be useful? Could draw a clock or maybe there's something available that counts down in an obvious way - I've been meaning to look for this as the sand timers don't seem to work with mine. "This is the time available to do your spellings (e.g. half hour) and this is how much time will be left for YouTube (or whatever, second half hour) if you manage to do them within that time. If you choose to go over the first half hour to get your spellings done, you'll shorten the time left for YouTube".

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We have so many visual timers that we look like we're running Dumbledore's office with the hourglasses and sand timers and counters-downers 😁unfortunately she hates them as they make her panic. It's an area where I can see the friction between the ASD and the ADHD.

I do like that ADHD Dude clip @drspouse thanks. Do you find the membership good value?

drspouse · 09/05/2024 14:34

MagicTape · 09/05/2024 14:08

I really like this approach but how do you manage it with a "time blind" child who just can't seem to connect that if she doesn't do X then there won't be time for Y? Or that choice X leads to consequence Y? I can say "You chose not to do your spellings, you chose not to have time left over for screens this evening"and she'll be distraught - but at the point that she is refusing to do the spellings time seems to stand still for her and she is completely unable to understand that time continued to pass and was running out while she dicked around. So the next day it just repeats. I do think it is can't not won't and it's such a sticking point.

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There's also a lot of advice on how to improve time management - and how to help children to feel the passage of time. We are just starting to use this but it is helping for "getting off screens" especially as our DS thinks if you pause the video time stands still! It is also supposed to be good for "I can't do X because it will take for AGES" as our DD says because often a chore will take a lot less time than the child thinks.

How to teach your ADHD child time management

ADHD Dude provides parent training through the ADHD Dude Membership Site, in-person school-year programs, and summer camps. ADHD Dude is not gender-specifi...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIkOqtL7Tf0

MoMandaS · 09/05/2024 14:19

MagicTape · 09/05/2024 14:08

I really like this approach but how do you manage it with a "time blind" child who just can't seem to connect that if she doesn't do X then there won't be time for Y? Or that choice X leads to consequence Y? I can say "You chose not to do your spellings, you chose not to have time left over for screens this evening"and she'll be distraught - but at the point that she is refusing to do the spellings time seems to stand still for her and she is completely unable to understand that time continued to pass and was running out while she dicked around. So the next day it just repeats. I do think it is can't not won't and it's such a sticking point.

Show quote history

I suppose this is where a visual timer could be useful? Could draw a clock or maybe there's something available that counts down in an obvious way - I've been meaning to look for this as the sand timers don't seem to work with mine. "This is the time available to do your spellings (e.g. half hour) and this is how much time will be left for YouTube (or whatever, second half hour) if you manage to do them within that time. If you choose to go over the first half hour to get your spellings done, you'll shorten the time left for YouTube".

Rocketpants50 · 09/05/2024 14:11

My DS 14, autistic can be really rude but we try to separate the general swearing and being rude to or about someone. So he can say a game or food is shit but he can't then tell his brother to f off.

He knows though he has a choice he can say them but there are consequences if he does so if he complains he knows he has made the choice and he has decided to take the consequence - off computer for a given time. He will stomp and huff but he knows he he then 'chooses' to throw a chair there is a further consequence. I say to him he has to be in charge of his actions and every action has a consequence. So if he doesn't swear at his brother he knows that his brother is likely to want to play a game with him later.
Am not pretending it's easy and some days I want to 'not hear' what he has said. He knows though I won't let him off. It is a bit easier now and he has calmed down a lot but when we started it it was really difficult, we did have a few broken chairs. I kept saying to him if you are choosing to carry on you are choosing the consequence.

Think it's important for them to know where they stand, if thry think its ok then go out and do it to the 'wrong' person the consequences could be awful and that some behaviours are not acceptable.

MagicTape · 09/05/2024 14:08

MoMandaS · 08/05/2024 12:12

I'm also a parent of ND children. This is some advice I was given:
Consequences

Use language of accountability and be clear, concise and concrete in connecting the “crime” to the consequence. (It is not necessary to rehash the sequence of events, that is most likely ngoing to make things worse because it causes shame about words/behaviours.)
Consequences should always be accompanied by a “clean up” that fits the “crime”. Ideally, the kid chooses the clean-up. Clean ups are not an additional punishment. They go hand in hand with consequences.
The “clean up” is more important and meaningful than the consequence.

Take things like “You’re losing Xbox”, “I’m taking away your phone” out of your communication. That is not using language of accountability and does not truly help connect actions to consequences. (It is reactive language, which allows kids to feel like they are the victim.) Here’s an example: “You chose to not follow your timeline this morning and made us late. You chose not to have your phone with you today. I hope you’ll chose to have it tomorrow." The key here is talking in soundbites, without adding judgements, lecturing or emotional reactivity. Don’t forget the 80% less words rule. Stick to clear concise rules like “Do not hit your brother” versus abstract rules like “be kind to everyone and keep your hands to yourself”. It can be useful to post rules around the house. Visual prompts can be a great reminder to young people.

I really like this approach but how do you manage it with a "time blind" child who just can't seem to connect that if she doesn't do X then there won't be time for Y? Or that choice X leads to consequence Y? I can say "You chose not to do your spellings, you chose not to have time left over for screens this evening"and she'll be distraught - but at the point that she is refusing to do the spellings time seems to stand still for her and she is completely unable to understand that time continued to pass and was running out while she dicked around. So the next day it just repeats. I do think it is can't not won't and it's such a sticking point.

Ihavenoclu · 09/05/2024 14:04

Personally I don't allow it. Mine are 12 and 5. I have always been really clear that you can be angry, sad, frustrated and all of those things and it is fine to express those feelings. But we are not rude, or unkind to eachother. I am shocked at how some
children shout 'I hate you' etc. It might come my way too one day but not so far.

My kids are by no means perfect. We are a pretty flawed family at times. We disagree and fall out like everyone else. But they do not speak disrespectfully to me, and I don't do it to them. I think my (soon to be ex) dh has played a very important role here. He has since they were tiny always reinforced manners. 'Do not speak to your mum like that, apologise' or 'That is not how you answer your mum, try again' type of thing.

MagicTape · 09/05/2024 13:59

Scootsville · 09/05/2024 13:55

I don’t actually think my DS has PDA, his defiance is transition based, and generally not wanting to do things, rather than anxiety.

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I've found this post and especially the graphic attached to it really, really useful. I've printed it and DC sometimes uses it to tell me what the problem is as she can't communicate verbally when she's worked up into a state.

https://www.autball.com/post/not-everything-is-pda

Not Everything Is PDA

Funny story.There was a post in a PDA group from someone who was wondering how to get their friend to do something. Friend was PDA, they had talked to the friend about this thing before, but the friend just wasn’t doing it. So they were sure it was bec...

https://www.autball.com/post/not-everything-is-pda

MagicTape · 09/05/2024 13:56

This thread has been really helpful to me - thank you everyone. I don't have many friends with the same experiences of parenting as me, and its a relief to see that DS's behaviour is quite common/typical of ND 7/8yo. If anyone fancies teaming up for an ongoing support/check-in thread for our pre-teen ADHD/ASD kids I'd willing join that in the hope it might save my sanity!

@TerroristToddler yes please. If you start one would you post the link here?

Original poster

Scootsville · 09/05/2024 13:55

drspouse · 09/05/2024 13:45

@Scootsville honestly there is very little evidence that the "low demand" parenting style is good for anyone, child or adult.
The demand avoidant/PDA profile is anxiety based and allowing the child to avoid everything that makes them anxious causes the anxious-making things to get worse and worse, making them more and more anxious about them.

I don’t actually think my DS has PDA, his defiance is transition based, and generally not wanting to do things, rather than anxiety.

OP posts:

Rocknrollstar · 09/05/2024 13:52

Sorry, but I brought up my DC to be polite and they never spoke to me ‘like that’. DS once heard his cousin be extremely rude to their GF and he turned to me and said ‘ I wouldn’t have ever have even thought of that and I know if I’d said It I would never have lived’. I hasten to add, I never ever hit him.

drspouse · 09/05/2024 13:45

@Scootsville honestly there is very little evidence that the "low demand" parenting style is good for anyone, child or adult.
The demand avoidant/PDA profile is anxiety based and allowing the child to avoid everything that makes them anxious causes the anxious-making things to get worse and worse, making them more and more anxious about them.

Newname71 · 09/05/2024 13:30

Just came to give you some hope. My DS2 has ADHD and was an absolute fucking nightmare from about 8 to 14. He’s 17 now and is a dream child. He’s polite, kind and thoughtful. He tells me he loves me daily and often texts me to tell me how amazing I am as a mum!
I really struggled to deal with his behaviour when he was younger and the best advice I was given was pick your battles and praise every good thing they do.
So any eye rolling or attitude would be completely ignored, my DM struggled with this as she felt it was letting him get away with murder but it worked for us.
We started a reward chart, he was included in choosing the rewards. With ADHD the rewards have to be almost immediate or they don’t work. Enough stickers today? You choose a film and we’ll watch together tonight. In the beginning we were giving stickers for everything just so he got the good feeling of the rewards and then wanted that feeling to continue. So I would use what he likes as a reward rather than take it away as a punishment IFYSWIM.

Zanatdy · 09/05/2024 13:13

Absolutely not. Nip it in the bud age 5, or you’ll have major problems in their teen years

labracadabras · 09/05/2024 13:11

Nothing is replied to without a please. If one says please can I do …. And I say yes you can. If they bugger off without a thank you - it is rescinded. I absolutely can’t abide it.

Shelllyfish · 09/05/2024 13:09

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This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines - previously banned poster.

dimples76 · 09/05/2024 13:08

My DS 10 (Autism, ADHD and learning disability) is rude to me a lot of the time. His current faves are calling me an idiot, or an ugly turd. To be honest though as he is also physically aggressive towards me and threatens to kill me the name calling is not the most problematic behaviour. He often will say stuff like 'get me a drink, idiot' - in which case I just don't get him a drink until he asks me nicely. Other times I just ignore him or tell him I will not discuss the matter until he uses kind words. What is particularly galling is that he is often very charming to others.

He did swear at me for the first time recently which really shocked me (he told me to shut the fuck up). I was so taken aback that I couldn't think what to say and just had to walk away

Original poster

Scootsville · 09/05/2024 13:01

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines - previously banned poster.

I use natural consequences wherever I can but regardless of ND, some behaviour can’t be accepted. But nothing has worked hence me asking on here for help. We are low demand as much as possible in the way we frame requests, leave him to get on with things as much as possible, choices, but the reality of life with an 8 year old is that there will be a lot of requests in every day life! Like every child he has things he has to do to attend school and hobbies (ie basic tasks).

OP posts:

Shelllyfish · 09/05/2024 12:11

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines - previously banned poster.

drspouse · 09/05/2024 12:06

MoMandaS · 08/05/2024 12:12

I'm also a parent of ND children. This is some advice I was given:
Consequences

Use language of accountability and be clear, concise and concrete in connecting the “crime” to the consequence. (It is not necessary to rehash the sequence of events, that is most likely ngoing to make things worse because it causes shame about words/behaviours.)
Consequences should always be accompanied by a “clean up” that fits the “crime”. Ideally, the kid chooses the clean-up. Clean ups are not an additional punishment. They go hand in hand with consequences.
The “clean up” is more important and meaningful than the consequence.

Take things like “You’re losing Xbox”, “I’m taking away your phone” out of your communication. That is not using language of accountability and does not truly help connect actions to consequences. (It is reactive language, which allows kids to feel like they are the victim.) Here’s an example: “You chose to not follow your timeline this morning and made us late. You chose not to have your phone with you today. I hope you’ll chose to have it tomorrow." The key here is talking in soundbites, without adding judgements, lecturing or emotional reactivity. Don’t forget the 80% less words rule. Stick to clear concise rules like “Do not hit your brother” versus abstract rules like “be kind to everyone and keep your hands to yourself”. It can be useful to post rules around the house. Visual prompts can be a great reminder to young people.

This narrative is one that ADHD Dude uses as well (I'm not sure if it has another name @Scootsville but we have site membership, which includes live office hours - I should see if I can get a referral discount as I've mentioned it to so many people!)
We do not currently use the way he speaks to us as an "expectation" as it isn't as big a deal as the aggression or food issues (which are more around bingeing on sweets and taking things that are supposed to be for dinner), but it has made a difference and we are moving slowly forward, with many steps back unfortunately.

Redruby2020 · 09/05/2024 09:23

Josette77 · 08/05/2024 11:35

Honestly I would let a lot of it go.

Unless it is blatantly inappropriate, I'd probably let the eye rolling go and maybe even make light hearted comments.

Focus more on the positive and see if his behaviour changes. He's allowed to annoyed and he's only 8. If you pul him up every time he's irritated it's going to be a cycle of you being angry and him feeling picked on and angry and on and on.

This is good advice.
You are right it does become a vicious cycle.
Mine is younger than yours OP, but i've had issues and there are definantly more to come.

My one likes the attention which I was told in a parent workshop, that any attention is attention and if you give it especially when they play up, they play on that further.

Original poster

Scootsville · 09/05/2024 09:17

I don’t tell off for things like “get me a drink”, just correct/ask him to try again. It’s more the clear attitude and nastiness that I can’t just gently let go.

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Original poster

Scootsville · 09/05/2024 09:16

drspouse · 08/05/2024 16:41

We have a 12 year old who has ADHD and is similar.
We do a mixture of:
ignore entirely, if he just shouts something rude randomly.
suggest we can't understand him, if he wants something "Give me a drink!" "sorry?" "Can I have a drink please?".
tell him he doesn't get to say that e.g. "you can't be in here, you're too annoying" "sorry it's my house, you can't say that". We try not to repeat the last one so much.

There is no point, with many children with ADHD, in calling them out every time as the act of exciting you into reaction is very stimulating for them, so they will keep doing it.

This is an ADHD thing, apparently, if you haven't yet done so you should definitely listen to the ADHD Guys podcast, they go into this and it can be a thing for ADHD adults e.g. voice too loud, not quite getting the tone right for the conversation.

Edited

i will be listening to this podcast thank you!

I think it’s definitely an ADHD thing, as my DH is also ADHD and I think of him as being quite demand avoidant sometimes, for the sake of it. He hates the idea of being told what to do!

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Original poster

Scootsville · 09/05/2024 09:15

NeurodivergentBurnout · 08/05/2024 15:34

I’m AuDHD (late diagnosed) and I suspect DD is too. We had similar issues, probably worst about aged 6. The attitude! Refusal to do even the basic tasks..like I recall one huge battle because she couldn’t/wouldn’t change her socks and they stank. I was honestly in tears with it. Asked ND friends who are parents, was recommended ‘1, 2, 3 magic’ and ‘The Explosive Child’. Both helped immensely. What I liked about the explosive child is that it’s not aimed at any specific condition but you sit down and it gives you the tools to work out what the key issues are, how to facilitate the change you need to see. Key take away is ‘all children want to do well if they possibly can’. so if your DS isn’t, why not? Also is there maybe demand avoidance? If he refuses to do things from a direct demand like ‘Put your shoes on’ it might be that. I’ve found DD is better when I make it sound like a choice, phrasing like ‘It would be great if you could get your shoes on now’. ‘Just a gentle reminder it’s time for x/x is outstanding’.
Music practice has been a massive sticking point and she’s done a lot more since I put it like that.

Key thing? Be positive. I love bombed my child! (In a good way). Every tiny thing even if it was just ‘Hey you put your shoes on!’. ‘Well done for brushing your teeth. Excellent!’ Every tiny little thing I praised until things started to turn around. Key for us though was improving her sleep. It was a LOT of work but once we cracked it, she was happpier and the other things like getting dressed, brushing teeth, were easier.
5 years on things are much better. Hormones are kicking in! But a couple of weeks ago I saw a massive attitude over something I had no control over so I simply said ‘You’re being very rude to me. I’m going to let you calm down’ and gave her space. I’m around but not in her face. She came and apologised spontaneously after an hour. Was I raging inside? Perhaps! But me rising to meet it doesn’t help. I’m divorced from her Dad. Unfortunately he thinks the best thing to do is come down on her really hard (he thinks I’m soft). He forces an apology, backs her into a corner, seems surprised that she doesn’t want to spend much time at his house! I’ve found a generally positive and gentle approach with a firm ‘Er that’s rude, I’ll wait til you’re calm’ when she plays up best personally. Not saying I get it right all the time! 😄 but it’s definitely better for the changes implemented in 1. 2. 3 magic and Explosive child.

Thank you this is all really helpful. I definitely need to do more praise of anything positive, he can be so kind - for example even though he thinks his brother is the most annoying person, clearly, he does let him sit with him and his friends at breakfast and after school club wraparound, which must be annoying as he’s 3 years younger. So I do think he’s kind when it really matters but it’s so hard when he is deliberately winding his brother up at home (and he’s definitely the antagonist 95% of the time, a PP asked if I was sure - I’ve listened closely!).

But I need to praise every little thing. Shoes on great. Clothes on, great, ate your breakfast, amazing. It probably doesn’t come naturally to me!

I read the Explosive child and didn’t find it all that helpful, and 123 also which I liked but I think would be hard to implement, I do count sometimes though and it helps!

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Boomer55 · 08/05/2024 16:50

No, I never did, and my kids are mid 40’s now, and they still haven’t. 🤷‍♀️

Toodleoodleooh · 08/05/2024 16:47

LifeExperience · 08/05/2024 15:45

My now adult son has ADHD and mild asd and he would have never in a million years spoken to us rudely. We didn't tolerate it. ADHD and asd are not "get out of acting like a decent human being" cards.

Correct. And that’s why schools are teeming with children who are rude and disrespectful to teachers. I far from a strict mum but I will not have rudeness end of. The kids aren’t scared of me they aren’t repressed they know there’s a way to talk and ask and that a basic boundary in our home is decent manners.